<VV> Re: Floor Pans (Kinda Long)

Thu Jun 2 13:01:50 EDT 2005

You recommend a Harbor Freight wire feed welder.  I bought one to do the 
floors in my Lakewood and it lasted for less than one spool of wire.  The 
wire feed mechanism quit and there's a negligible warranty on that part.
RonH

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Cable" <s2cable1 at yahoo.com>
To: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 8:29 PM
Subject: <VV> Re: Floor Pans (Kinda Long)

> For those of you that are discussing rivet installation of floor pans, 
> please allow me to shed some light on the process:
>
> 1. Rivet types:  Since the panels to be riveted are cold rolled steel, 
> this forces you into one of two rivet material choices:
> a.) Stainless Steel or
> b.) Steel
> You cannot use aluminum because of galvanic corrosion.
> Since commercially available pop-rivets are 1100 series aluminum, these 
> are quickly ruled out.  Cherry-Max or Cherry-Lok makes a pull type rivet 
> in stainless, but they're very expensive, and very hard to find. You also 
> need special equipment to pull this type of rivet, which is very expensive 
> also.  You may luck out and find some at a local FBO at a small airport, 
> but they will most likely be the aluminum (7075, or 7050 series aluminum) 
> which won't do you any good either although stronger, you still have the 
> galvanic corrosion issue.
>
> This leaves you with solid steel rivets, that must be bucked.  IF you can 
> find some, then of course, you'll need the proper tools to install them 
> with.
>  A good 4x rivet gun, and various shaped bucking bars. A good used rivet 
> gun alone will lighten your wallet by a couple hundred bucks...
>
> 2. Rivet spacing:  For a structural application, the rivet spacing should 
> be held between
>  4 - 6 D. (that's 4x to 6x the rivet diameter) Thusly, if you were using 
> 5/32" rivets and riveting two panels together that are 6 feet long,  @ 4d 
> spacing=115 rivets, @ 6d=77 rivets.  Since 5/32 and smaller is not 
> considered a structural rivet, you will more likely need to choose a 3/16 
> or 1/4 inch size, spaced as shown below:
> using 3/16ths" rivet @ 4d=96 rivets, @6d=64 rivets
> using 1/4" rivets @4d=72 rivets, @6d=48 rivets.
> With the Corvair floor panels riveted on, you could easily double the 72 
> inch rivet seam length.
> that's alot of rivets....
>  If you have never bucked rivets before the process goes something like 
> this:
> Trim and fit panel
> Prep and deburr all faying surfaces and edges
> Layout the hole pattern
> Mark (center-punch) the hole pattern
> Drill locating holes
> Cleco part into place
> Drill hole pattern, cleco-ing every 4th or 5th hole
> Remove clecos
> Deburr all holes (both sides of both panels)
> Apply sealant (or panel adhesive)
> Reinstall panel with same amount of clecos
> Starting from the center wet install rivets (with sealant), removing 
> clecos as you go.
> If you are using countersunk rivets, then you have to add the process of 
> countersinking all the holes before you de-burr the holes.  Which would be 
> worth your while to purchase a drill stop, as it would easily triple your 
> drilling time sizing each countersink.  Again the proper tools aren't 
> cheap.
>    So you plan on installing a hundred or more steel rivets PER panel. 
> Sure hope that you have experience doing this, because Lord help you if 
> you happen to screw one up as you go-
> Which is almost guarenteed working within the close confines of a chassis- 
> because now you have to remove the rivet head, and drill out the shank, 
> and pray to the sheetmetal gods that you don't double drill or egg-shape 
> the hole when removing the rivet shank.
> If you egg shape the hole, then you'll have to oversize it for the next 
> rivet size up.
>
> Here's a list of tools you'll need:
> Air Compressor
> Air Hoses
> Drill
> Drill bits (Number sizes not fractional)
> Center punch (perferably an automatic type)
> Drill guide
> Clecos (probably around a hundred of the correct size)
> Cleco pliers
> De-burring tools
> Countersink
> Countersink stop (adjustable drill stop)
> putty knife
> Panel adhesive gun
> Rivet gun
> Bucking bar
> File(s)
> Sheetmetal shears
> Hearing protection
> Safety glasses
> Rags
> Lights, Lots of lights and even more lights (to see where you are working)
>
>
> Not to discourage anyones intent here, this is the reality of tackling a 
> job of this magnitude.
> One could easily drop a grand alone in tools to do this job.  So what is 
> my advice?  If it were me, I'd purchase a wire feed welder or MIG. Harbor 
> Freight sells one for about $200 bucks.
>
>    I just did this job on my VW / Porsche / Corvair kit car project this 
> last weekend and got excellent results using an Acetylene and Oxygen torch 
> set-up.  I "tacked" the pans every two inches. It's important to note that 
> there is a distinct difference between the Corvair and the VW.  The VW 
> chassis has a tunnel down the center of the chassis in which the pans 
> attach to.  When I applied the heat, I aimed or directed the heat onto the 
> tunnel  and let the puddle flow onto the pan.  I also placed a soaking wet 
> towel on the pan near the area I was welding, to minimize heat distortion.
>    It's also important to know that the chassis has been stripped of all 
> fuel and brake lines, it's just a bare, glass-beaded clean chassis (no 
> fire hazards).   When I flipped the chassis over to weld the outboard rear 
> fittings, you could see on the center tunnel where the heat had penetrated 
> to the lower part of the tunnel. YEA!!!
>  Hope this sheds some light on the subject and best wishes on your 
> project.
>
>
> Scott Cable
> Jamestown, ND
> s2cable1 at yahoo.com
>
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