<VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving
ral1963 at comcast.net
Sun Mar 5 10:34:54 EST 2017
Well Dave, I hope you can find the smoking gun and we can adjust the 1961
Model breakdown or adjust the "Last Vin" at SL or FL for 1961 to match...
I am a numbers guy and can't stand having a varience of 13....it is even
more fustrating that GM had errors in both reports so we do not have a good
feel on which way to lean for the adjustment.
For the time being ( I guess I will have to wait until May to "fix" my 1963
FC Model breakdown) I have updated my documentaion to reflect the
following....
Total ALL Production
1,838,311
Total Canada
48,927
Total USA Production
1,789,384
Total Car USA Production
1,659,022
Total FC Production
130,362
This changes all previously reported/stated Total Corvair (and FC) numbers
by +3,141 units....
I have attached a NEW Model Breakdown spreadsheet (63 FC in RED pending
revision) and a New Last VIN by Plant with GM documented chnages and my
adjustment (with notes) to the 1961 SL Last VIN.
Rick Loving
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 4:15 PM
To: VirtualVairs at corvair.org; Rick Loving
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu; 'Matt Nall'; 'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent Sullivan'; 'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell';
'Bob Helt'; Dave Trull
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Hi Rick,
Ah yes, your eagle eye spotted that discrepancy :-)
I was using the revised car assembly plant production number doc that I have
when I made the 3,000 Bloomfield correction. Those revised plant totals
equal 282,075 vs. the assembly plant totals you're using (WR, KC & OA, from
the 8-14-61 Central Office letter corrected by Bloomfield's 3000) which come
to 282,103.
The differences are: 1) My revised plant totals show 190361 as the last 1961
WR car (built on 7-28-61) vs. 190383 for the 8-14-61 plant totals; and 2)
The revised plant totals show 55,464 as the last 1961 OA car (built on
7-21-61) vs. 55470 for the 8-14-61 plant totals.
The revised figures reduce the 1961 WR total by 22 cars and the Oakland
total by 6 cars, which makes the difference (drum roll please) 28 cars
(282,103 - 282,075).
Since the revised 282,075 plant total equals the 282,075 total of the
individual car production numbers, I believe both of these totals are
correct.
For extra fun, I checked the production figures I got from Willow Run in
1979. The 1961 total on their charts is 190,361 (last car built on 7-28-61)
which matches the revised total. Sadly I don't have the same figures from
Oakland. But based on the accuracy of the revised 1961 WR total I think we
should accept the revised OA figure too.
I'll mention in the article that three of the previously reported assembly
plant totals should be changed (1961 WR, 1961 OA and 1963 OA) to agree with
revised plant totals and that these revised figures match the sum of the
individual model production numbers we know so well.
I think we've got it :-)
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 3/4/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To: "'David Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>, VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu, "'Matt Nall'" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "'Mike
McGowan'" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "'Rod Murray'"
<rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "'Ed Bittman'" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>,
"'Harry Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>, "'Kent Sullivan'"
<kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "'Mark Corbin'" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "'Bill
Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "'Bob
Marlow'" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, corsa at cox.net
Date: Saturday, March 4, 2017, 3:35 AM
OK...So I changed my data to reflect the NEWLY REVISED 1963 last VIN at
OAKLAND to be 122406, however we still have more descrepancies.
We
will assume the 13 FC's in 19661 & 3,141 FC's in
1963 will be adress in May
and I will update my data.
We still have the following differences in
1961 Production VS VIN breakdown when using your Bloomfield numbers VS my
Bloomfield calculation varience..(all other years now
match)
You
state...
Bloomfield for 1961 = 3,000..
In order for stated
1961 Model Breakdown to match VIN breakdown, the 1961 Bloomfield must be
2,972..
We have a varience of 28 units....
So is the total units for 1961 337384
(including OSH) or are
there last VIN ending differences in the 1961 revised VIN chart?
My Data...
*
PRODUCTION
BY
VIN
*
1961
1961
Willow
Run
190383
1961
Kansas
City
33250
1961
Oakland
55470
1961
FLINT
15185
1961
ST
LOUIS
32385
1961
Bloomfield*
2972*
1961
Oshawa
7739
1961
USA
329645
1961
CANADA
7739
1961
TOTAL
PRODUCTION
337384
* no USA VIN
assigned...
1961
Production
337,384
1961
535
5,591
1961
735
20,451
1961
569
18,752
1961
769
51,948
1961
969
33,745
1961
527
16,857
1961
727
24,786
1961
927
109,945
1961
R1206
18,493
1961
R1205
15,812
1961
R1254
10,790
1961
R1244
2,475
1961
CAN
7,739
* Adjusted Sedan counts
reflect
2,972 for Export Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for
13
missing units
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 03, 2017 10:37 PM
To: Rick Loving
Subject: RE: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Hi,
Yes, I was adding the plant totals given in a different Chevy Corvair
production doc which shows the last '63 built at Oakland on 7-12-63 as #
22406. I should have noticed that in the Central Office plant serial
letter dated 9-3-63 it shows the last 63 OA Vair to be 22403.
I think there must have been a revised OA total adding three cars.
There's no reason to suspect that the Bloomfield, VN or WR numbers are
off.
Since we have two sources that show 254,571 as the correct total, I think
we should go with that and assume the error was with the Oakland figure.
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On
Fri, 3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net>
wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing
FC's
HELP!!!!!
To: "'David Newell'"
<chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 7:45
PM
For 63 numbers...you
state....
For example, take
1963:
Add up the
six CAR model numbers and they equal 254,
571
Deduct the
1963 Bloomfield Corvair total of 456 and you get
254,115
Then add the WR, OA & VN plant totals (ending serials) and you get
254,115
However the production from WR, OA,
VN
is 214470+17239+22403 =
254112 .. not 254115...so the
Bloomfield Production needs to be
459 per my
calcualtions...
Rick
-----Original
Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 03, 2017 9:10 PM
To: 'David Newell'; VirtualVairs at corvair.org; Rick Loving
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu; 'Matt Nall'; 'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent Sullivan'; 'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell';
'Bob Helt'; 'Bob Marlow'; corsa at cox.net
Subject: RE: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Hi Rick,
Wow, thanks for all of your hard work
and dedication. Not many folks care about the data like we do.
Actually
it's all pretty simple. If we would have published the Bloomfield CKD
plant figures earlier, we would have prevented a lot of confusion.
The
car model production figures and their totals that we published years ago
were prepared in the '60s by Chevrolet and are actually OK.
They include the
Bloomfield numbers. Chevrolet counted Bloomfield production just as if it
was a normal assembly plant like Willow Run.
The assembly plant serial
number/production total docs you're using for comparison only include
Willow Run, Kansas City, Oakland and Van Nuys. Those docs were meant for
use by US Chevy factory reps who had no use for CKD totals. And CKDs had
no US serials anyway.
If you take the total of the car model numbers for each year (not
including the FC numbers) and deduct the Bloomfield numbers, then they
match the WR/KC/OA/VN plant totals. Except for 65 & 66 when Oshawa "built"
all Vair CKDs and in that case the numbers match as is. And 68 and 69 are
no brainers since there weren't any CKDs in those years.
For example, take
1963:
Add up the six CAR model numbers and they equal 254,
571
Deduct the 1963 Bloomfield Corvair total of 456 and you get
254,115
Then add the WR, OA & VN plant totals (ending serials) and you get
254,115
This works for every year except 1965, 66, 68 and
69:
Take 1965 and add the seven car model numbers = 235,528
There
isn't any CKD number to deduct.
Then add up the WR & VN totals =
235,528
We'll publish the Bloomfield numbers and note that they're included in the
well worn yearly model production numbers and their
totals:
1960: 4,584
1961: 3,000
1962: 1,800
1963: 456
1964:
480
1967: 96
I trust that no one copied with this email will publish the Bloomfield
numbers until the May Communique comes out. I worked hard to find them and
the credit is all that I get paid :-)
FYI, Canadian production
isn't included in any of the above numbers. It was over and above those
figures.
But the Canadian CKD numbers are included in Canadian Corvair yearly
totals.
Thanks
again,
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Fri,
3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: RE:
<VV> Missing FC's
HELP!!!!!
To: "'David
Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>,
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc:
spilatrs at marietta.edu, "'Matt Nall'"
<patiomatt at aol.com>, "'Mike
McGowan'"
<mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "'Rod
Murray'"
<rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "'Ed
Bittman'"
<ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "'Harry
Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>,
"'Kent Sullivan'"
<kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "'Mark
Corbin'"
<airvair at earthlink.net>, "'Bill
Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>,
"'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>,
"'Bob Marlow'"
<rwmarlow at comcast.net>, spilatrs at marietta.edu, corsa at cox.net
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 5:08
PM
I am glad we are all on the same
page in wanting to get the most accuate numbers out there, updating our
information, and preserving the Corvair history.
I
am re-vamping my original email as we kmow what is amiss...
In regards to the FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63
(3141
trucks)
are unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown"
For 61 it accefts all 4 types
and for 63 only 3
models are affected.
Since I do not have the details
that
Dave does, I mearly determined what the % to toal each body stayle was
and extrapolated the "new" totals using the same percentages based on
the "correct"
production totals from the VIN
charts.
This changed the follow model
breakdown by the
units highlighted in RED..and added the missing 3154 units to the Total
FC production counts.
Hopefully Dave will make
adjustments
where possible based on his documentation.
For
the car
production...
60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are
afftected... I noted that the defferences in 67 were directly related to
the CDK units and started working towards calculating "how" the other
years exprts could have affected the Model
breakdone.
I had a hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the
4
door Sedans in the year as they were the expoted models...I theorized
that the numbers somehow got double counted...where they were included
in the original model counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing
the exports. It was the only way the "production" numbers could be
counted higher than the VIN totals....
So I made the similair adjustements to the sedan Model units
based on the variences between the overal production and the VIN
production. All changes to "pre-existing totals are hightlighted in
RED...
All in
all only a few models from each year were affected....I am curious as to
how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers from.....
I
have
attcahed my spread sheet with what I
calculated...(and
pasted it here
below)....
NEW
SUGGEST
MODEL
#'s
TOTAL
1,827,933
USA
1,779,006
CANADA
48,927
YEAR
MODEL
TOTALS
1960
Production
248,684
1960
569
46,155
1960
769
136,152
1960
527
14,628
1960
727
36,562
1960
927
11,926
1960
CAN
3,261
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down
4,584
for Export
Varience
1961
Production
334,412
1961
535
5,591
1961
735
20,451
1961
569
18,009
1961
769
50,462
1961
969
33,002
1961
527
16,857
1961
1961
1961
727
24,786
REVISED % T
TTL
ORIGINAL % to
TOTAL
1961
927
109,945
47,557
% to
total
47,570
% to
total
1961
R1206
18,493
18,489
0.389
18,493
0.389
1961
R1205
15,812
15,806
0.332
15,812
0.332
1961
R1254
10,790
10,787
0.227
10,790
0.227
1961
R1244
2,475
2,475
0.052
2,475
0.052
1961
CAN
7,739
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down
2,972
for Export
Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for
13
missing
units
1962
Production
334,205
1962
735
3,716
1962
935
2,362
1962
569
-
1962
769
34,468
1962
969
47,159
1962
527
16,245
1962
727
18,474
1962
927
144,844
1962
967
13,995
1962
927 S
6,894
1962
967 S
2,574
1962
R1206
18,007
1962
R1205
13,491
1962
R1254
4,102
1962
R1244
369
1962
CAN
7,505
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down
1,800
for Export
Varience
1963
Production
291,101
1963
569
-
1963
769
20,456
1963
969
30,889
1963
527
16,680
1963
727
12,378
1963
927
117,917
1963
967
36,693
1963
1963
1963
927 S
11,627
REVISED % T
TTL
ORIGINAL % to
TOTAL
1963
967 S
7,472
30,109
% to
total
26,968
% to
total
1963
R1206
15,364
15,364
0.5103
13,761
0.5103
1963
R1205
12,461
12,461
0.4139
11,161
0.4139
1963
R1254
2,284
2,284
0.0759
2,046
0.0759
1963
CAN
6,880
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down
459
for Export
Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up
for
3,141
missing
units
1964
Production
214,003
1964
569
-
1964
769
16,055
1964
969
21,686
1964
527
22,968
1964
727
-
1964
927
88,440
1964
967
31,045
1964
627
6,480
1964
667
4,761
1964
R1206
6,201
1964
R1205
8,147
1964
R1254
851
1964
CAN
7,369
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down
480
for Export
Varience
1965
Production
247,092
1965
139
17,560
1965
539
37,157
1965
137
36,747
1965
537
88,954
1965
567
26,466
1965
737
20,291
1965
767
8,353
1965
R1206
1,528
1965
CAN
10,036
1966
Production
109,880
1966
139
8,779
1966
539
12,497
1966
137
24,045
1966
537
37,605
1966
567
10,345
1966
737
7,330
1966
767
3,142
1966
CAN
6,137
1967
Production
27,157
1967
139
2,911
1967
539
3,109
1967
137
9,257
1967
537
9,771
1967
567
2,109
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 96
for
Export
Varience
1968
Production
15,399
1968
137
7,206
1968
537
6,807
1968
567
1,386
1969
Production
6,000
1969
137
2,762
1969
537
2,717
1969
567
521
Exported Corvairs
11,589
(34,875 total
exported Corvairs
from
1960-1969)
Belgium
Denmark
Mexico
S
Africa
Swiss
S
America
TOTALS
1960
1,841
171
1,383
405
630
384
4,814
1961
616
104
633
720
554
345
2,972
1962
598
18
460
184
429
111
1,800
1963
337
0
0
0
122
0
459
1964
216
0
0
0
264
0
480
1965
336
0
0
0
224
0
560
1966
264
0
0
0
144
0
408
1967
48
0
0
0
48
0
96
1968
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1969
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
TOTALS
4,256
293
2,476
1,309
2,415
840
11,589
*All
Estimated to meet VIN Productin Totals
-----Original Message-----
From:
David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday,
March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
To:
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc:
ral1963 at comcast.net;
spilatrs at marietta.edu; Matt Nall; Mike
McGowan; Rod Murray;
Ed
Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill
Hubbell; Bob
Helt;
Bob Marlow
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's
HELP!!!!!
Rick, Matt,
Rod and all...
Thanks for
bringing up this important and long overdue
issue.
Your sharp
eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing
for taming those pesky
FC
numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article
for
the Communique this
year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces
I'm determined to do before
year's end or whenever Mike
and Harry retire. Which is
when I'll bow out,
thank
you.
The FC production numbers by year and model -- as published
in The
Corvair Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have
ever been printed --
go back to the early
1970s when all we had were car numbers.
The FC figures were
a
huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who
requested them,
plus the
62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from
Chevrolet. They've been
reprinted a jillion times at
least. We had no reason to
question 'em, nor did
anyone
else.
In 1988 I came across the month-ending serial numbers for
each plant. They were a revelation, but like you I caught
the 1963 FC
inconsistencies and wrote a memo to file that flagged them
as a possible
"breakthrough" in numbers
research. But at the
time there was nothing else to
check the
plant totals against, much less cross check the
original
numbers
supplied by Chevy.
Eventually holy grail docs
appeared, confirming that
the Flint and St Louis totals were correct and just how
faulty some of the
original Chevy-supplied
figures were. In my article I'll
show how that was done
and
how the process also corrected the '63 model
production
numbers.
Your
observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken
and right on. But
there's major goof besides
that one. It'll surprise
and probably dismay you, in
that it's
taken me so damn long to write about it. But
maybe you'll all
forgive
this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way
too much historical
trivia to ever have time to
explore.
So....help has arrived. I'll fix it.
But everyone
has to get on board and spread the new figures.
Rick,
your
questioning the old figures now should help validate the new
numbers. I've been
worried that some folks might not
easily embrace the
corrections. We'll need to
spread the word
so that whenever anyone edits or reprints
what
they've
previously published (with the old numbers) they can fix it.
It should be
"official" CORSA policy, pointed out on the web
site, but I know that's
expecting too
much.
Here's to all of us who care about
numerical
accuracy. And truth in general. Somebody's gotta get it
right, 'eh?
:-)
Dave Newell
History
Editor, CORSA
Communique
--------------------------------------------
On
Thu, 3/2/17,
Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>
wrote:
Subject:
RE: <VV> Missing
FC's
HELP!!!!!
To:
"ral1963 at comcast.net"
<ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"spilatrs at marietta.edu"
<spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
"chevrobilia at yahoo.com"
<chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc:
"Matt Nall"
<patiomatt at aol.com>
Date: Thursday,
March 2, 2017, 9:41
AM
Hey
rick,
Seems like Steve Spilatro and dave
newell
might be good sources to check in
with.
Good luck w/ the
project...count me amongst
those that appreciate
thorough fact-finding
and
numerical accuracy.
-
rod
Rod
Murray
Senior Director,
Production and Game
Presentation
Pittsburgh
Penguins
rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
Office:
412-255-1906 |
Fax: 412-255-1980 |
Mobile:
412-719-3449
PPG
Paints Arena |
1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh,
PA
|
15219
-----Original
Message-----
From: VirtualVairs
[mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
On
Behalf
Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
Sent: Thursday, March 02,
2017
11:07 AM
To:
virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV>
Missing
FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving / Vair Historian
needs
some help!!
His email
is
Does
anyone know the "oldest"
published model numbers
for Corvair Forward
Control
trucks (and where those totals came from?)?
When
you
look at all the historical numbers for 1963
FC
production there is a 3,141
variance between what has
been reported
historically...and I want to
fix
it!!!
...according to the Corvair Decade (not
sure where
Tony
pulled them) and repeated across dozens
of publications
and
websites...here is what FC Model
breakdown for 1963
has
been
reported.
1963 Corvan =
11,161 Units
1963 Greenbriar =
13,761
Units
1963 Rampside =
2,046
Units
___________________________
1963
Total Model Breakdown =
26,968
Here is the
issue,
According to GM documents, 1963
plant production
at St Louis and Flint for Corvair
FC's was
as
follows..
1963 Flint = 15,211 (Last VIN
built)
1963 St
Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN
built)
_______________________________________
1963
Total VIN Production =
30,109
So we have 3,141
Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in
the
Model
breakdown?
Since FC's don't really have a
"Body
number"
listed on the Fisher Tag like cars...can
anyone think
of a way to
accurately "correct" the
production by model
information?
Was
the
original "model" numbers derived from a
%
built?
Summary...
1961 Model
breakdown matches VIN
totals exactly at 47,557
1962
Model breakdown matches VIN totals close
at 47,557 model vs
14,570 by VIN (13 more reported by
Model)
1962 Model
breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs
to
be
revised...
1964 Model breakdown
matches VIN totals exactly at
15,199
1965 Model
breakdown matches VIN totals exactly
at
1,528
Thoughts?
ral1963 at comcast.net
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