<VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Steve Spilatro
spilatrs at marietta.edu
Fri Mar 3 22:43:46 EST 2017
Dave,
Does the corrected numbers you have include any major revisions to the annual FC model production numbers? I have been intrigued by the significant discrepancy between the percentages of different models among remaining FCs (in the registry) vs the original production numbers, but have assumed this is a consequence of preferences among enthusiasts as to which FCs were preserved (e.g., great preferences for Rampsides).
btw: The FC registry currently includes about 825 vehicles although only 18% are Flint assemblies (vs 38% originally). I have attributed this to shipment of Flint vehicles preferentially to east coast / rust-belt states.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
To: "ral1963" <ral1963 at comcast.net>, "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>, "virtualvairs" <VirtualVairs at corvair.org>
Cc: "Steve Spilatro" <spilatrs at marietta.edu>, "Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "Mike McGowan" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "Rod Murray" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "ebittman" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "corsa" <corsa at corvair.org>, "kentsu" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "airvair" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "Bob Helt" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "rwmarlow" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, corsa at cox.net
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 10:17:54 PM
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Hi,
Yes, I believe that single 8/63 Flint FC is correct. The Flint & St Louis ending serials added together exactly match the sum of the FC model totals in the latest internal Chevy docs I have.
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To: "'Rick Loving'" <ral1963 at comcast.net>, "'David Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>, VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu, "'Matt Nall'" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "'Mike McGowan'" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "'Rod Murray'" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "'Ed Bittman'" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "'Harry Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>, "'Kent Sullivan'" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "'Mark Corbin'" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "'Bill Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "'Bob Marlow'" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, spilatrs at marietta.edu, corsa at cox.net
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 5:28 PM
Please clear one thing
up....
In the VIN
chart....1963 for FLINT Plant, the Month end VIN
for July shows 115210 and the last VIN for AUG as
115211....
So...the last day of
July 1963, Wednesday the 31st the 2nd to
last 63 FC was built.......then sometime after midnight and
on Thursday Aug 1st 1963...the last 63 FC rolled off the
line.... creating
the "only" FC built in the month of Aug
1963.....
or is there an error
in the VIN's as
listed....
Rick
From: Rick Loving
[mailto:ral1963 at comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08
PM
To: 'David Newell';
'VirtualVairs at corvair.org'
Cc: 'spilatrs at marietta.edu';
'Matt Nall';
'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent
Sullivan';
'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell'; 'Bob
Helt'; 'Bob Marlow';
'spilatrs at marietta.edu'; 'corsa at cox.net'
Subject: RE: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
I am glad we are all on the same page in
wanting to get the most
accuate numbers out there, updating our information, and
preserving the Corvair
history.
I am re-vamping my
original email as we kmow what is
amiss...
In regards to the
FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63 (3141 trucks)
are unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown"
For 61 it accefts all 4 types
and for 63 only 3 models are affected.
Since I do not have the details
that Dave does, I mearly determined what the % to toal each
body stayle was and
extrapolated the "new" totals using the same
percentages based on the "correct"
production totals from the VIN charts.
This changed the follow model
breakdown by the units highlighted in RED..and added the
missing 3154 units to
the Total FC production counts.
Hopefully Dave will make adjustments
where possible based on his documentation.
For the car
production...
60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are afftected... I
noted that the
defferences in 67 were directly related to the CDK units and
started working
towards calculating "how" the other years exprts
could have affected the Model
breakdone.
I had a
hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the 4
door Sedans in the year as they were the expoted models...I
theorized that the
numbers somehow got double counted...where they were
included in the original
model counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing
the exports. It
was the only way the "production" numbers could be
counted higher than the VIN
totals....
So I made the
similair adjustements to the sedan Model units
based on the variences between the overal production and the
VIN
production. All changes to "pre-existing totals are
hightlighted in
RED...
All in all only a
few models from each year were affected....I am
curious as to how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers
from.....
I have
attcahed my spread sheet with what I calculated...(and
pasted it here
below)....
NEW SUGGEST MODEL #'s TOTAL
1,827,933 USA
1,779,006 CANADA
48,927 YEARMODEL TOTALS 1960Production
248,684 1960569
46,155 1960769
136,152 1960527
14,628 1960727
36,562 1960927
11,926 1960CAN
3,261 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 4,584
for Export Varience1961Production
334,412 1961535
5,591 1961735
20,451 1961569
18,009 1961769
50,462 1961969
33,002 1961527
16,857 196119611961727
24,786 REVISED % T TTLORIGINAL % to TOTAL1961927
109,945
47,557 % to total
47,570 % to total1961R1206
18,493
18,489 0.389
18,493 0.3891961R1205
15,812
15,806 0.332
15,812 0.3321961R1254
10,790
10,787 0.227
10,790 0.2271961R1244
2,475
2,475 0.052
2,475 0.0521961CAN
7,739 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 2,972
for Export Varience* Adjusted FC counts up for 13
missing units1962Production
334,205 1962735
3,716 1962935
2,362 1962569
- 1962769
34,468 1962969
47,159 1962527
16,245 1962727
18,474 1962927
144,844 1962967
13,995 1962927 S
6,894 1962967 S
2,574 1962R1206
18,007 1962R1205
13,491 1962R1254
4,102 1962R1244
369 1962CAN
7,505 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 1,800
for Export Varience1963Production
291,101 1963569
- 1963769
20,456 1963969
30,889 1963527
16,680 1963727
12,378 1963927
117,917 1963967
36,693 196319631963927 S
11,627 REVISED % T TTLORIGINAL % to TOTAL1963967 S
7,472
30,109 % to total
26,968 % to total1963R1206
15,364
15,364 0.5103
13,761 0.51031963R1205
12,461
12,461 0.4139
11,161 0.41391963R1254
2,284
2,284 0.0759
2,046 0.07591963CAN
6,880 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 459
for Export Varience* Adjusted FC counts up for 3,141
missing units1964Production
214,003 1964569
- 1964769
16,055 1964969
21,686 1964527
22,968 1964727
- 1964927
88,440 1964967
31,045 1964627
6,480 1964667
4,761 1964R1206
6,201 1964R1205
8,147 1964R1254
851 1964CAN
7,369 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 480
for Export Varience1965Production
247,092 1965139
17,560 1965539
37,157 1965137
36,747 1965537
88,954 1965567
26,466 1965737
20,291 1965767
8,353 1965R1206
1,528 1965CAN
10,036 1966Production
109,880 1966139
8,779 1966539
12,497 1966137
24,045 1966537
37,605 1966567
10,345 1966737
7,330 1966767
3,142 1966CAN
6,137 1967Production
27,157 1967139
2,911 1967539
3,109 1967137
9,257 1967537
9,771 1967567
2,109 * Adjusted Sedan counts down 96 for
Export Varience1968Production
15,399 1968137
7,206 1968537
6,807 1968567
1,386 1969Production
6,000 1969137
2,762 1969537
2,717 1969567
521 Exported Corvairs 11,589(34,875 total
exported Corvairs from
1960-1969) BelgiumDenmarkMexicoS AfricaSwissS AmericaTOTALS19601,8411711,3834056303844,81419616161046337205543452,9721962598184601844291111,80019633370001220459196421600026404801965336000224056019662640001440408196748000480961968000000019690000000TOTALS4,2562932,4761,3092,41584011,589 *All
Estimated to meet VIN Productin Totals
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
To:
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc:
ral1963 at comcast.net; spilatrs at marietta.edu; Matt Nall; Mike
McGowan; Rod Murray;
Ed Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill
Hubbell; Bob Helt;
Bob Marlow
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing
FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick,
Matt,
Rod and all...
Thanks for bringing up this
important and long overdue issue.
Your sharp eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing
for taming those pesky FC
numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article
for the Communique this
year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces
I'm determined to do before
year's end or whenever Mike and Harry retire. Which is
when I'll bow out, thank
you.
The FC production
numbers by year and model -- as published in The
Corvair Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have
ever been printed --
go back to the early 1970s when all we had were car numbers.
The FC figures were
a huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who
requested them, plus the
62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from
Chevrolet. They've been
reprinted a jillion times at least. We had no reason to
question 'em, nor did
anyone else.
In 1988 I came
across the month-ending serial numbers for
each plant. They were a revelation, but like you I caught
the 1963 FC
inconsistencies and wrote a memo to file that flagged them
as a possible
"breakthrough" in numbers research. But at the
time there was nothing else to
check the plant totals against, much less cross check the
original numbers
supplied by Chevy.
Eventually holy grail docs appeared, confirming
that
the Flint and St Louis totals were correct and just how
faulty some of the
original Chevy-supplied figures were. In my article I'll
show how that was done
and how the process also corrected the '63 model
production numbers.
Your
observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken
and right on. But
there's major goof besides that one. It'll surprise
and probably dismay you, in
that it's taken me so damn long to write about it. But
maybe you'll all forgive
this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way
too much historical
trivia to ever have time to explore.
So....help has arrived. I'll fix it.
But everyone has to get on board and spread the new figures.
Rick, your
questioning the old figures now should help validate the new
numbers. I've been
worried that some folks might not easily embrace the
corrections. We'll need to
spread the word so that whenever anyone edits or reprints
what they've
previously published (with the old numbers) they can fix it.
It should be
"official" CORSA policy, pointed out on the web
site, but I know that's
expecting too much.
Here's to all of us who care about
numerical
accuracy. And truth in general. Somebody's gotta get it
right, 'eh?
:-)
Dave Newell
History Editor, CORSA Communique
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/2/17,
Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com> wrote:
Subject:
RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To:
"ral1963 at comcast.net" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"spilatrs at marietta.edu"
<spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
"chevrobilia at yahoo.com"
<chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc:
"Matt Nall"
<patiomatt at aol.com>
Date: Thursday,
March 2, 2017, 9:41
AM
Hey rick,
Seems like Steve Spilatro
and dave newell
might be good sources to check in with.
Good luck w/ the
project...count me amongst those that appreciate thorough
fact-finding and
numerical accuracy.
-
rod
Rod
Murray
Senior Director, Production and
Game Presentation
Pittsburgh Penguins rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
Office:
412-255-1906 | Fax: 412-255-1980 | Mobile:
412-719-3449
PPG
Paints Arena | 1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh, PA
|
15219
-----Original
Message-----
From: VirtualVairs
[mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
On
Behalf Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
Sent:
Thursday, March 02, 2017
11:07 AM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving / Vair
Historian needs
some help!!
His email is
Does
anyone know the "oldest" published model numbers
for Corvair Forward
Control trucks (and where those totals came from?)?
When you
look at all the historical numbers for 1963 FC production
there is a 3,141
variance between what has been reported historically...and
I want to fix
it!!!
...according to the
Corvair Decade (not sure where Tony
pulled them) and repeated across dozens of publications
and
websites...here is what FC Model breakdown for 1963 has
been
reported.
1963 Corvan =
11,161 Units
1963 Greenbriar =
13,761 Units
1963 Rampside = 2,046
Units
___________________________
1963 Total Model Breakdown =
26,968
Here is the
issue,
According to GM documents, 1963
plant production at St Louis and Flint for Corvair
FC's was as
follows..
1963 Flint =
15,211 (Last VIN built)
1963 St
Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN built)
_______________________________________
1963 Total VIN Production =
30,109
So we have 3,141
Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in the
Model breakdown?
Since
FC's don't really have a "Body number"
listed on the Fisher Tag like cars...can anyone think of a
way to
accurately "correct" the production by model
information?
Was the
original "model" numbers derived from a %
built?
Summary...
1961 Model breakdown matches
VIN
totals exactly at 47,557
1962 Model
breakdown matches VIN totals close
at 47,557 model vs 14,570 by VIN (13 more reported by
Model)
1962 Model
breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs to be
revised...
1964 Model
breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at
15,199
1965 Model breakdown matches VIN
totals exactly at
1,528
Thoughts?
ral1963 at comcast.net
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