Mike, Tom K. used water injection into the air/fuel mix on BOTH engines. In the u-tube clip I reference in the original email and shown below, Tom shows that the point of water injection in his gasoline powered Bonneville engine was downstream of the carburetion and upstream of the turbo compressor. In order to take full advantage of the water's effect in the combustion process it has to enter the cylinders as WATER either liquid or vapor. The effect is NOT due to the vaporization of the water, it's due to the temporary DECOMPOSITION of the water into hydrogen and oxygen. This process TEMPORARILY "borrows" a lot of the heat of the gasoline (or propane) combustion thereby preventing detonation but soon RETURNS the heat
as the hydrogen and oxygen RECOMBINE back into water so that the combustion process is lengthened and the BMEP is increased WITHOUT increasing the PEAK cylinder pressure. The decomposition of the water is ENDOTHERMIC (absorbs heat) as Tom K. describes and the subsequent COMBUSTION of the hydrogen and oxygen back into water is EXOTHERMIC (makes heat). If you reference Harry Ricardo's original work you'll see this effect shown graphically.
Frank Burkhard
Boonton, NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: Webmail vair65 <vair65 at sisna.com>
To: fastvair <fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: frankcb <frankcb at aol.com>; virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>; turbovair <turbovair at yahoogroups.com>; mcvicker scott <mcvicker_scott at yahoo.com>; v8vair <v8vair at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, May 26, 2015 12:45 pm
Subject: Re: Responses on Re: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
Seems like everyone is talking apples and oranges. The facy that bmw is now using water injection along with intercooling to get max hp is interesting but what are you going to do with it? I have no idea of the top speed of a m3/4 but suspected it's higher than my grocery car where the fuel limiter cuts in a 150mph. Utah has raised the speed limits in some sections to 80 mph but 5 over will cost about $100 and it gets progressively worse as the speed goes up. 0-60 times don't mean much on the freeway.
On my system which is a 4 injector tbi with a air mass sensor blow through I adapted a water to air intercooler to it years ago and if I wan't to go faster I just raise the wastegate settings to say 20PSI instead of the present 15 but the engine won't last as long and bent con rods, ruined heads and cylinders are expensive to replace as 140 parts don't come cheap. Water injection didn't work for me as it's a blow through system, the fuel delivery requirements are set at the air mass sensor, the water injection system I tried used the turbo to atomize the water where it puddle in the bends in the induction pipe or in the intercooler shell with very little (if any reaching the heads where it would have been usefull). I guess I could always go to a port injection setup for the water but then that would make the air mass sensor readings incorrect and I don't plan on changing fuel injection systems just to get a little more power.
What Tom K. did years ago was impressive then or now. Wasn't at the salt flats when he ran and while the gas powered engine with water injection eas impressive (how many gallons of water did he use on a 5 mile course?) the propane powered engine was the faster car by quite a bit. AFAIK he did not use water injection on the propane powered engine.
Just my opinions-Mike Mann
----- Original Message -----
From: JVHRoberts at aol.com [fastvair] <fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
To: frankcb at aol.com, fastvair at yahoogroups.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org, turbovair at yahoogroups.com, mcvicker scott <mcvicker_scott at yahoo.com>, v8vair at yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, 26 May 2015 08:10:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Responses on Re: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
Yet every turbo car built today has an intercooler.... Hmm... And Mercedes has a 335 HP 2.0 liter four banger, no water injection.
Again, I see a lot of customers complaining about another tank to fill. Same complaint as the diesel owners who have to fill their AdBlue tank...
John Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: frankcb <frankcb at aol.com>
To: fastvair <fastvair at yahoogroups.com>; virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>; turbovair <turbovair at yahoogroups.com>; mcvicker_scott <mcvicker_scott at yahoo.com>; jvhroberts <jvhroberts at aol.com>; v8vair <v8vair at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, May 26, 2015 12:41 am
Subject: Responses on Re: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
First off, the Olds Jetfire was rated at 215 hp and only had about 5 psi of boost, so it would hardly have been very impressive by today's standards. Second, the water injection system was completely mechanical so adjustment was not easy and took a extensive knowledge of that system. The Shop Manual itself had a large number of pages dedicated to the water injection setup. If the water ran out, the system responded by eliminating ANY boost.
John, if you'll alert BMW as to how well intercoolers work compared to water injection, maybe they'll realize their mistake! Do you really mean to suggest that any News Service that carries people like O'Reilly and Hannity is likely to get BMW news wrong??
For winter use, you could simply use windshield washer fluid, which many drivers (like myself) already carry around in a spare container.
Interestingly, during the Second World War (1941-1945) water injection was installed and USED on 20,000 of our U.S. airplanes. Even at that time it was known that water injection does a LOT MORE than simply cool down the compressed air/fuel mix. It changes the fuel combustion process itself, allowing much higher AVERAGE cylinder pressure (BMEP) that makes torque, WITHOUT increasing the PEAK cylinder pressure that produces detonation and breaks things.
Listen to Tom Keosababian explain how water injection does much more than simply cool the mixture (go to time 7:50 on this clip):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKZa7TNuFtI&feature=youtu.be
Many years ago I checked this out for myself when I had a "rattle" (significant pre-ignition) when I accelerated our 110 PG Corvair from a low cruising speed. It sounded like empty bottles rattling behind me. The car had NO turbo so intercooling wouldn't have helped. It probably needed a reduction in vacuum or mechanical advance. But I used this opportunity to install homemade water injection blowing down into the top of each of the two carbs. An electric pump supplied the pressure to blow through the atomizing nozzles. And the system was activated by me pressing the button on the bottom of the dash. If I pressed the button BEFORE I accelerated, all was quiet. If I forgot to push it, I heard the sound of rattling in back of me. To me that proved the value of water injection.
Frank Burkhard
Boonton, NJ
P.S. If there's any further interest I can expand on Tom K's reference to endothermic and exothermic in his explanation.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott McVicker mcvicker_scott at yahoo.com [fastvair] < fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
To: fastvair < fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 25, 2015 11:05 pm
Subject: Re: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
I had a '62 Jetfire, one of 3,500 built, as a project, sold before I got it running. (The Starfire was the big Olds, Mike, like an Impala SS.) I rode in a friend's '63 Jetfire, wasn't impressed. Scott
On Monday, May 25, 2015 9:32 PM, "JVHRoberts at aol.com [fastvair]" <fastvair at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Welcome to 2015.
John Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Levine
v8vair at yahoo.com [fastvair] <
fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
To: fastvair <
fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 25, 2015 7:48 pm
Subject: Re: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
Yes John, GM couldn't get the public to fill the bottle in the Olds Starfire Turbo 215 in the 60s!
People today just want to push a button instead of turning a Key! Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2015, at 4:39 PM, "
JVHRoberts at aol.com [fastvair]" <
fastvair at yahoogroups.com> wrote:
We'll see... Besides being reported by Fox 'News', I think customers will get tired of filling that thing, especially of an alcohol is needed in winter. Intercoolers really changed the game here!
That's my opinion, I could be wrong.
John Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From:
FrankCB at aol.com [fastvair] <
fastvair at yahoogroups.com>
To: fastvair <
fastvair at yahoogroups.com>; turbovair <
turbovair at yahoogroups.coml>; virtualvairs <
virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Sent: Mon, May 25, 2015 2:45 pm
Subject: [fastvair] Water Injection Returns
Looks like water injection is returning from the past into modern production:
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/03/12/bmw-water-injection-system-gives-turbo-engine-boost/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_437848
Wonder if we should alert Tom Keosababian? If it works for BMW, "maybe" it could work for him!!
Frank "aquaman" Burkhard
Boonton, NJ
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