<VV> Was-Space Saver Spare/Now-Dangerous Tires and Dangerous Posts

Wed Oct 8 12:34:11 EDT 2014

Well, I think you need to get some thicker skin, sir. 
And for God's sake, learn what 'succinct' means! 

No sense starting a flame war over hurt feelings. 

John Roberts

-----Original Message-----
From: RoboMan91324--- via VirtualVairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
To: virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>; corvairduval <corvairduval at cox.net>
Sent: Wed, Oct 8, 2014 11:16 am
Subject: <VV> Was-Space Saver Spare/Now-Dangerous Tires and Dangerous Posts

Hi Frank,

The deadly advise was in the overall text of his post. Please  read it 
ignoring what you already know of the references. By the way, reading  his first 

sentence, in its entirety, it seems clear that he was offering those  
references in support of his position and not as a general research  
opportunity. 
 What I took from the post is that  this individual was refuting my post 
and every other post on this subject.   He stated that preceding posts were 
"more folklore than fact" and he,  of course, had the valid opinion.  Many 
people would read only the  text without bothering to research the links 
because they tend to  automatically trust opinions when they include presumably 
valid references. This  is especially the case when the opinion is delivered 
in an arrogant  manner.  That sometimes fools people.  I try to keep an open 
mind and  checked his references in case I had missed something on the 
subject and was  surprised to find they refuted his own position.  My  surprise 
wasn't so much that they supported my and others' opinions but that it  
seemed he didn't read his own references.  Who does that?

Yes, "his last words" were "... the dry grip was not  impressive!!"  I am 
surprised you edited it that way.  The last half  of the sentence you posted 
was preceded by, "The handling was fine ..."   The fine handling seems to be 
his message not the poor dry grip.  Either  way, my opinion is that 
unimpressive dry grip is not "fine  handling" but that's just me.  Of course, 
the 
wording was from his memory  and does not necessarily represent what was 
actually written.  However, I  assume he remembers the general message from the 
article.  From his  "memory quote", someone might  conclude that these SSS 
are acceptable for "normal" driving with any car  including our Corvairs.  
That seems to be his intended message.  Some  people on this list are not as 
knowledgeable as others and might just believe  someone who puts out toxic 
especially when presented with an authoritative  tone.  Again, keep in mind 
that his post was about refuting the posts that  preceded his.  All were on 
the subject of the SSS being used on our cars as  a single flat tire 
replacement.  His was  too.  The Car and Driver reference was to support his 
attempt 
to refute our  cautionary advice.  At least he was honest enough to include 
that it was a  four wheel test as you pointed out.  However, I am sure some 
(hopefully,  very few) people here on VV would remember "The handling was 
fine ..." rather  than the dry skid point and not take that leap of logic that 
it was with four  identical wheels; not one.  In addition, please remember 
that one of the  references mentions that there is reduced braking 
performance with an SSS.   This would account for part of the "dry grip" issue 
including both skid and  brake lock-up.  Besides reduced braking, with just one 
of 
these wheels on  the front, you are going to pull unexpectedly one way or 
the other.   Without power steering and traction control, that first 
emergency braking  situation could be a real killer; literally.  My opinion is 
that 
this is a  real world handling issue as well.

Elaborating on this, you point out, "Also,  he was talking about a special 
case of ALL FOUR tires being space savers,  therefore a matched set."  Thank 
you.  Why would anyone use an "apples  and oranges" example like that to 
support his position that a single SSS on a  Corvair is OK to be driven 
normally?  They are not at all equivalent.   I am surprised he used this example 

to support his position.

Most of us, but maybe not everyone, here on VV are aware that  Corvairs 
have a reputation for flipping over.  I think most but not all  know that the 
vast majority of those single-car accident flip-overs are due to  tire 
issues; especially with EMs.  Properly inflated tires and other wheel  issues 
are 
much more of a safety concern with our Corvairs than with more  traditional 
design cars.  I seriously doubt that the Car and Driver test  was done with 
Corvairs.  My contention and that of other posters is that  driving any car 
with an SSS mounted and expecting normal handling and at-speed  safety 
performance is risking a serious accident.  To do so with a Corvair  is more 
than 
a mere risk; it is begging for a catastrophe.  

To save a little space, I will try to be brief on the  mechanics of the 
failure modes.  I touched on reduced braking and brake  induced steering above. 
 However, the flip-over issue mostly comes in a  turn.  Assume the SSS is 
on the inside of the turn.  In effect,  the SSS is on the right rear corner 
in a right hand turn or vice versa.   The outside wheel with the standard 
tire will have most or all of the lateral  and rotational traction because the 
inside wheel with the SSS is harder (high  pressure) and has minimal tread.  
The smaller diameter is an issue  too.  Especially with an EM, the outside 
wheel will tend to tuck under and  raise the rear.  Because the outside 
wheel has most or all of the traction,  the problems can show up at lower 
speeds.  You will have a higher center of  gravity at the same time as 
experiencing high lateral load on the outside  wheel.  A broken bead and/or 
flip-over 
is much more likely.  Braking  or accelerating in the turn makes things 
worse.  There are also issues with  over/under steer depending on where the SSS 
is on the car.

So, to answer your opening question, that post was expressing  the opinion 
that an SSS on a Corvair is not a concern.  To make that  assertion, raises 
the possibility that someone with minimal knowledge of Corvair  handling 
idiosyncrasies might take that advise and risk a catastrophic  event.  That was 
the potentially "deadly advise."  Most of us know  better, but if just one 
"newby" Corvair owner on this list now knows that the  post we are 
discussing is insanely wrong, this train of discussion is well  worthwhile.

By the way, I do not offer myself to the group as  all-knowing.  If 
anything I write doesn't ring true or is  unclear, it needs to be researched, 
questioned or  challenged.  This is especially the case on safety issues.  You 
did  this as you should have and your post pointed out that I was not totally 
clear  initially.  I regret that I wasn't clear enough previously and hope I 
have  cleared things up for everyone with an interest in this topic.  
Because  this is a safety issue, I will be happy to further clarify my position 
or  elaborate if you or anyone thinks it is worthwhile.

Regards,

Doc

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In a message dated 10/7/2014 9:00:11 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
virtualvairs-request at corvair.org writes:

Message:  4
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 10:12:38 -0400
From: "corvairduval at cox.net"  <corvairduval at cox.net>
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: Re:  <VV> Was-Space Saver Spare/Now-Dangerous Tires and
Dangerous  Posts
Message-ID:  <380-220141027141238740 at M2W118.mail2web.com>
Content-Type:  text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

What deadly advise did John  offer?

He offered three sources to read about space savers so one could  do 
research and make up their own mind. Like you did.

His last words  are " the dry grip was not impressive!!"

Also, he was talking about a  special case of ALL FOUR tires being space 
savers, therefore a matched  set.

You are talking about one space saver, that is the intended use,  and 
therefore not what the Car and Driver article addressed.

Frank  DuVal

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