<VV> Forum

Mon Mar 18 23:32:39 EDT 2013

I like that!

Chuck Sadek
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven J. Serenska" <corvair at serenska.com>
To: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Cc: <jon at jonwoolf.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: <VV> Forum

> Dear Jon, Matt, Sewing Circle Members, and Other Interested Hens:
>
> The following is pedantic, borderline sanctimonious, and chuck full of
> meta-comments and other bullsh*t computer jargon.  What I have to say is
> annoying as hell, at least in part.  Press delete if you've got a synapse.
>
> You've been warned.
>
>
> Jon Woolf wrote:
>> This is more of a sewing circle than an informative forum- think I'll
>> leave you ladies to your gossip and go play with my Corvair.
>>
>> Been nice.  Please remove my name from all of your mailing lists.
>
> And Matt commented:
>> Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES 4 
>> different ways!
>>
>> And I would think a new member would do that to find out what "subjects" 
>> may be "problems"
>>
>> I'd apologize to you... but your instant "opinion of us" makes that 
>> impossible!
>>
>> Best of everything to you!  We're all having fun!
>
>
> Matt further pointed out:
>> Google search using "Electric fan site:www.vv.corvair.org" came up with 
>> 494 messages just since we started the archives.
>
> IMHO -- which is worth precisely $0.02 -- Jon W. needs to crawl off
> somewhere and perform some skin-thickening exercises.  We all do from
> time to time and, apparently, Jon's time has come.  I haven't seen a
> reaction like that since Pastor Bob trawled these waters.
>
> But Matt, let's be fair to Jon.  You said:
>
>     - "Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES
> 4 different ways!"
>
>     - "Google search using 'Electric fan site:www.vv.corvair.org' came
> up with 494 messages"
>
> Where exactly are the instructions concerning how to do all this? Where
> are the instructions advising that you even SHOULD do this before posting?
>
> Here's what I just did:
>
>  1) In response to your first comment, I clicked the "Archives at" link
> found in every email and digest.  That brought me to
> http://www.vv.corvair.org/pipermail/virtualvairs.  Unless I've gotten
> dumber and blinder in my advancing years, there are NO instructions for
> how to search the archives at this link.
>
>  2) There IS, however, an alluring link labeled "You can get more
> information about this list" where the words "more information about
> this list" are a blue underlined hyperlink.  I'm a sucker, so I
> clicked.  It brought me to
> "http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/listinfo/virtualvairs".  Here's what
> you find at that link:
>
>     a) An advisory that the list is "Open to all Corvair related
> postings, all years, stock to specialty."
>
>     b) A circular link that tells you "To see the collection of prior
> postings to the list, visit the VirtualVairs Archives" (i.e., the place
> you just linked from).  In the world of computer programming, following
> a link to yourself is called "recursion". In real life, it's called
> "chasing your f*ing tail."
>
>     c) There are also instructions for subscribing and posting.
>
>     d) There are numerous links and other doo-dads available for
> administrators only.  These are off limits for us mere sewing-circle
> mortals.
>
> There are NO instructions for searching the archives.  Or am I missing
> something obvious?
>
> But because Matt said......
>
>> Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES  4 
>> different ways!
> ....I went and tried to search the VV website, i.e., I went to 
> www.vv.corvair.org.  There's a little intro, and some nice instructions 
> about accessing the Members Area, but there are NO INSTRUCTIONS about 
> searching the archives.  Not one instruction, not two, and certainly not 
> four.
>
> While you're on the VV website, if you use the cool little Delco radio 
> buttons, and click "Archive", you'll get to a fairly dense little blurb 
> that announces:
>
> "The Digest Files button will take you to a files index. Once you arrive 
> at the index, click on a file to open it. There are no return links on the 
> text pages, so it will be necessary to use your browser's "Back" button to 
> return to this page."
>
> Well, ok, but THAT doesn't seem like something that "tells [me] how to 
> SEARCH ARCHIVES 4 different ways!", so I didn't bother.
>
> There is a cool final sentence that says: "Alternately, you can use the 
> search feature, below.".  If you put in a search term and click that 
> button, voila, you get the goods.
>
> ...BUT...
>
> How many new users would EVER get that far?  And, most importantly, how 
> many people would know how to look at the search results, know enough to 
> adapt the resulting technique for formulating a syntactically correct 
> Google search, and then execute it?  (Scroll down to see my guess at the 
> answer.)
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> (zero.)
>
>
> Boys and girls, if we bury our "How to Search the Archives" instructions a 
> bajillion levels deep, it's not really fair to criticize people for not 
> finding them and not following them.  We can't go around saying "RTFM" 
> when it's not in the FM.
>
> Here are some suggestions:
>
> 1) Let's provide a modified example of Matt's instructions above on the VV 
> sign-up page.  Something like: "Welcome to Virtual Vairs.  VV was started 
> in 1994(?) to discuss all things related to Corvairs.  Before posting, you 
> may wish to use Google to search the VV archives to see if your question 
> has already been discussed.  One effective search method involves starting 
> Google in your browser, entering "<my topic> site:www.vv.corvair.org" as 
> your search, and then reading through the results.  In the above, replace 
> '<my topic>' with whatever you're interested in learning about (e.g., seat 
> belts, tires, radios, carburetors, brakes, etc.)."
>
> 2) Even better, let's put that nifty search feature that's located at 
> http://www.vv.corvair.org/archive.htm on the SIGNUP SCREEN
> and on the screen that's shown when the archives link is clicked.
>
> 3) And, if there truly are instructions for searching the Archives four 
> different ways, let's put those on the archives page itself, instead of 
> the lame little "You can get more information about this list" link.
>
> Jon W., if you're still reading, I think you blew it.  In the 3 
> suggestions above, I used a variant of "the royal 'we'" (i.e., "let's"). 
> Was that so offensive?  Did you even notice?  I just wrote "I think you 
> blew it", not because you blew up at Matt for using the word 'we', but 
> because this list is patrolled by about 700 of the most knowledgeable 
> Corvair guys on the planet.  The "been there, done that" factor is off the 
> charts.  Sitting alone in your garage and turning a wrench with no one 
> around to bounce ideas off isn't going to get you there faster or more 
> enjoyably.
>
> I'm among the most pathetic amateurs on the planet compared to some of 
> these guys.  One time, I had to ask: "How do you remove an ignition switch 
> on a late model when the instructions in the shop manual don't work?"  It 
> turns out that the 1965 shop manual instructions are reprinted from the 
> Early shop manuals and there's a key difference not reflected in the 
> steps.  These guys knew it and I had 4 helpful, step-by-step replies 
> within 2 hours.  I had 10 total answers before 24 hours had passed.  I 
> know you won't believe me, but you won't find more generous, patient, and 
> knowledgeable people anywhere else.  Yes, some of the list members can get 
> irascible at times, and some people can act like d*ckheads, but so be it. 
> There are d*ckheads in all walks of life.  (BTW: Matt isn't one of them. 
> He's one of the generous ones.)
>
> Here's my suggestion: Go into lurk mode for awhile.  Experiment with 
> Matt's technique for using Google to search the archives.  Work on your 
> Corvair.  And, when you get stuck with some practical problem that you 
> can't figure out, just ask.  Half a dozen guys will help you.
>
> They'll do it because that's what they do.
>
> Steven "been on this list for 13+ years and wishes he could put back a
> hundredth of what he's gotten out of it" Serenska
>
> '65 Monza Convertible, 110/4
> '66 Corsa Coupe, 140/4
>
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