<VV> (OT) Was age of vehicles (Now competent disgnosis.)

Fri Dec 13 22:23:14 EST 2013

For my 1993 Saturn, I use the paper clip method as well. great for pulling codes, though realtime data is lost I'm still debugging a . I don't believe that method works on post-1996 cars though (at least not Saturns) which employed OBD2 on board diagnostics. OBD2 scanners are relatively inexpensive. If you don't have a scanner, codes can be read for free at your FLAPS (I know Autozone does this, I believe others do too). I have a program on my laptop that I use to read codes which also allows me to clear them as well. 

As RoboMan says, what you do with the data requires you to use your brain a little though. If you are DIY-ing it, sometimes just replacing sensors is a resonable approach in the absence of other data since they are often inexpensive (though the O2 sensors on newer vehicles can run $80 or more, so you might want to at least put your thinking cap on before just replacing things -- for example, if the rear O2 sensor "fails" it may either be a bad catalytic converter or a downstream exhaust leak. 

And as Bryan says about Neon owners, Saturn S-series owners are also cheap in ways reminiscent of Corvair owners as evidenced by this thread on saturnfans.com: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189090 . 

I came into Corvair ownership relatively late in the game. I imagine when most Corvair old-timers were using Corvairs as their primary daily drivers, there was a similar combination of love for the cars and economic reality that caused people to gravitate toward Corvairs in a similar fashion. 

Maybe in another 30 years people will be sniping at how ridiculous it is that people will be spending $40,000 for a Saturn on ebay 

Karl in Boston 

----- Original Message -----

From: RoboMan91324 at aol.com 
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org, shortle556 at earthlink.net, bgilbert at gilberts-bc.ca 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:32:43 PM 
Subject: <VV> now age of vehicles  (Now competent disgnosis.) 

Wow!!! 

I have not heard of a "removal and credit" policy like yours  since I 
worked as a mechanic in a neighborhood service station many years  ago.  Do you 
credit the part but still charge labor for the R &  R?  Almost universally, 
dealer and non-dealer service starts with $125-150  just to plug into the 
computer.  The "problem" printout has anywhere from 5  to 20 potential problems 
that usually includes the oxygen sensor.  Keep in  mind that the O2 sensor 
will always register a problem if the engine doesn't run  right.  It doesn't 
mean the sensor is bad.  I wonder how many millions  of perfectly good O2 
sensors now reside in landfills.  The new O2  sensor stays in the car and you 
pay for it even though they almost always  continue to work their way down 
the "problem" list ... at your expense.   The excuse is that "there was more 
than one thing wrong." 

Most, if not all, computer based automotive systems allow you  to access 
the onboard data and see the same information the professional  diagnosis 
equipment tells the mechanic.  I access my vehicle's computer  with a paper clip 
I bent up to jumper two points on a plug.  Go to your  FLAPS and buy a 
repair manual (not owner's manual) for  your vehicle for $20 or so.  The manual 
will tell you how to access the  data, interpret what it means as well as 
let you look up symptoms of  many problems.  If your symptoms are in the 
manual, great.  If not, it  is still cheaper to do your own parts swap.  Hint 
..... do not start with  the O2 sensor.  If you can't do your own work or 
choose not to, at least  you can be a little educated when you talk to the 
mechanic.  If the  mechanic gives you attitude about your input, go somewhere 
else.  If you  paid for the computer diagnosis, grab it before you leave.  You 
paid for it  .... you own it.  If you can give them your handwritten list of 
potential  problems, you might even try to tell them not to plug your car 
into their  computer.  It probably won't work because that $125-150 is pure   
profit other than the few minutes it takes to plug your car in.  This   
assumes that the cost of the computer is already amortized. 

I am sure that there are mechanics at some dealerships and  private shops 
that are both ethical and capable of doing real "human" diagnosis  of a 
problem but I have found that most are swappers for profit or lack of  competence 
reasons.  If they can use the "problem list" as justification  for a $1200 
invoice versus a $200 invoice they usually opt for the  dollars. 

Your "removal and credit" policy gives you a big incentive to  develop 
significant competence in diagnosis.  Working on only one make of  vehicle helps. 

JMO 

Doc 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

In a message dated 12/13/2013 1:15:22 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,   
virtualvairs-request at corvair.org writes: 

Message:  3 
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:57:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) 
From: shortle  <shortle556 at earthlink.net> 
Subject: Re: <VV> now age of  vehicles 
To: Bob Gilbert <bgilbert at gilberts-bc.ca>,  corvairduval at cox.net, 
virtualvairs at corvair.org 
Message-ID: 
<9313952.1386964673919.JavaMail.root at mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 

That is more than  .002 cents Bob. As far as a "$100 per hour parts 
replacer" you may look for a  different guy. In my shop we charge $90/hour and if 
we put a part on your  newer type car and your car is not fixed we will take 
that part back off the  shop and put it back on the shelf. Most of my 
inventory for customers cars is  just that but there is a small amount that is 
used for diagnosis purposes. For  those people on fixed incomes remember I 
didn't fix your income just your  newer type car. Since I only work on 1 kind of 
car (VOLVO) it is easier to  stock/repair/diagnose than a shop that wants 
to work on every kind of car. Oh  I also just renewed my subscription to the 
Volvo on line service system for 1  year for a little over $7,000.00. Yeah 
yeah I know: that is my problem. My  suggestion to the poor broke motoring 
public is DON'T DRIVE A CAR. 
Timothy  Shortle in (cold) Durango Colorado  81301 

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