<VV> Fw: Re: LM turbos and no lower shrouds
shortle
shortle556 at earthlink.net
Tue Oct 25 17:10:33 EDT 2011
-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: shortle <shortle556 at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:00 PM
>To: "Eric S. Eberhard" <flash at vicsmba.com>, jvhroberts at aol.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org
>Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>
>The
>>idiot light on the Corvair comes on over 280, maybe 290, or so
>
>What idiot lite? And what is being measured? Except for a 1960, oil temperature is neither measured nor monitored.
>Timothy Shortle (back) in Durango Colorado 81301
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Eric S. Eberhard" <flash at vicsmba.com>
>>Sent: Oct 25, 2011 1:26 PM
>>To: jvhroberts at aol.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>>
>>Hmm ... Mobil1.com mentions their oils are safe at sustained temps
>>over 500 degrees. Of course I would expect most of the rest of the
>>car to melt down! Although my diesel run EGT temps over 1300 degrees
>>for very long sustained periods and nothing has melted on that! . 260
>>is NOT hot. In fact my Judson car does not even run well until I get
>>the oil temps over 260 (head temps be darned). If I advance the
>>timing on that car I can make it so that the idiot light wants to
>>come on going up the hot steep grades, so I do have to keep it (not
>>surprisingly) close to stock.
>>
>>Cooler is NOT always better. The dampers on my cars seem to regulate
>>temps -- rarely, in fact, are they fully open. Generally they are
>>partially open unless hot and flogging it. With normal driving head
>>temp rarely change, except on long grades when boost goes up, they
>>will rise. I suspect the doors are fully open but I never ran back
>>to check while driving :-) Check this article on Corvair oils out
>>... you will note that until the oil is over 210F you are not even
>>getting good lubrication and likely are bypassing the oil filter and
>>using dirty oil. Prolonging warm-up and running too cold is BAD, not
>>good. Yes it is cooler, cooler not always good.
>>
>>http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf (this is excellent info BTW)
>>
>>Note that he points out that 320F+ temps are found in turbos ... I'd
>>think the idiot light would scream as my 102 with Judson will scream
>>before 290 ...
>>
>>You do know they use mostly stock Corvair engine on
>>airplanes? Without any cooling fan? With turbo motors?
>>
>>I wonder if you have actually tried a more or less stock car that was
>>correct? For example, some discount the muffler design or change the
>>carb. Both of these were designed to limit boost. If you changed
>>these out ... you are running more boost than was intended, which is
>>when the can of worms is opened. Have you tried one with everything
>>in place with correct carb, muffler, timing, etc? Dwell
>>correct? All that good stuff. And then seen if it over heats?
>>
>>E
>>
>>At 03:23 AM 10/25/2011, jvhroberts at aol.com wrote:
>>>I had an oil temp gage, and overcooled oil wasn't an issue! With oil
>>>temps hovering around 260, I should've installed a more effective oil cooler.
>>>
>>>The thermostats on a Corvair were never meant to regulate
>>>temperature as they do on a water pumper, they're meant to speed
>>>warm up, with the possible exception of the 1960 setup. But the less
>>>said about the toilet seat the better!!
>>>
>>>As such, consistent engine temps are a pipe dream on a Corvair, they
>>>just don't happen, as cooling limitations abound.
>>>
>>>For a stock turbo car, anything done to improve cooling is a
>>>definite improvement. Drive a stock N/A car hard, the same thing is true.
>>>
>>>John Roberts
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Eric S. Eberhard <flash at vicsmba.com>
>>>To: jvhroberts <jvhroberts at aol.com>; virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>>Cc: virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>>Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 8:48 pm
>>>Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't think we disagree :-) I am a turbo owner most of the time
>>>(don't actually have one now). It will run cooler without
>>>shrouds. No argument. The argument is whether that is a good thing
>>>or not ...
>>>
>>>The question is -- will it run consistent temperatures? Will it warm
>>>up fast enough? Will it ever run too cool (oil temps under
>>>220)? Will anything be damaged by hot engine parts getting soaked in
>>>cold water. How do like all that dirt and crud all over parts of the
>>>engine never designed to be exposed? Throw a rock, bend a pushrod
>>>tube, lose an engine?
>>>
>>>And I guess it depends on your definition of "adequate" is ... mine
>>>is within the range on the gauge and not popping off the idiot light!
>>>
>>>The gauge on a Spyder ranges from 200 to 600 ... and generally "in
>>>the middle" is what is considered the normal operating range. So 400
>>>is certainly not too hot. If your car runs at 300, that is awfully
>>>cool and is costing you mileage. If you are driving around town and
>>>it is under 220 you are sludging your engine horribly. If you are
>>>425-450 you are still close to the center of the gauge and I think
>>>that is fine -- 350-450 is pretty normal, I would not get excited
>>>even 25 more degrees from that.
>>>
>>>You might want to go drive it at 300 for a while, then stop, and use
>>>a heat measuring gun on the oil filter. I bet you are under 220 and
>>>you are damaging your engine by being too cool. Also, I bet you
>>>drive hard part of the time, and like a commuter most of the time. I
>>>bet you have wide swings in temps (shoot it with a heat gun). That
>>>also is very hard on the engine.
>>>
>>>All I am saying is that cooler is not always better and it is easy to
>>>keep a stock car where it belongs by leaving the stock cooling system
>>>alone. If you modify it, carefully consider the cooling mods as part
>>>of the project.
>>>
>>>E
>>>
>>>At 05:23 PM 10/24/2011, <mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com wrote:
>>> >As a turbo owner, I'd have to say you're dead wrong. Mine definitely
>>> >ran cooler with the lower shrouds removed, and even then, adequate
>>> >is NOT a word I would use! These cars can always use more,
>>> >especially at prolonged full power.
>>> >
>>> >John Roberts
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: Eric S. Eberhard <<mailto:flash at vicsmba.com>flash at vicsmba.com>
>>> >To: jvhroberts <<mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com>;
>>> virtualvairs <<mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org>virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>> >Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 5:36 pm
>>> >Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I really think that a stock engine with the stock cooling is more
>>> >than adequate. In fact, I would bet money that a stock engine with
>>> >stock cooling runs COOLER than one with the shrouds removed. And I
>>> >dare you to drive spiritedly and get that lower part really hot and
>>> >then splash through some cold water. And, I really like my heater in
>>> >the winter.
>>> >
>>> >You don't get much worse (for straining the cooling system) than the
>>> >spirited driving in AZ where 105 is common, 120 happens .... I never
>>> >had cooling problems even on steep grades. I drove my little Spyder
>>> >30k miles and it never complained. I've gone over 100 mph in that
>>> >car when it was over 100. My coupe has A/C and PG and I can drive it
>>> >up a 6% grade with A/C on (which blows ice BTW stock except Sanden
>>> >compressor) at 75 (my engine is tweaked a little, it is a 110 instead
>>> >of 102) when it is 105 out, no problems. In fact in all of my life
>>> >of having Corvairs (including 2 LM turbos and 1 EM turbo) and always
>>> >with stock shrouds, bellows, doors, and very importantly the sealing
>>> >of the engine compartment -- I have never had a Corvair
>>> >overheat. Not even after losing a belt (STOP fast!). In fact, if
>>> >anything I'd complain that it warms up too slow on cold days ...
>>> >seems to take forever even with the doors closed and the summer
>>> >plates off. And I am not in-experienced -- I've had them 35 years,
>>> >10 more years if count the ones I worked on with my grandpa, and I
>>> >have owned as many as 10 at a time, never zero, and currently
>>> >2. Last time I checked I have had more than 30 Corvairs. I actually
>>> >do know what I am talking about. So I will simply have to agree
>>> to disagree.
>>> >
>>> >E
>>> >
>>> >At 03:30 AM 10/23/2011,
>>> <<mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com%3Ejvhroberts at aol.com?>mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com
>>> wrote:
>>> > >Um, the stock system is not all that and a bag o' chips. Sorry. For
>>> > >those of us who have turbo cars, etc., the cooling is utterly
>>> > >inadequate. Removing the shrouds produces a noticeable drop in CHT
>>> > >and oil temperature.
>>> > >Even on a non turbo car, if driven spiritedly, the cooling system
>>> > >runs out of breath.
>>> > >
>>> > >So, there is, in fact a better system out there. GM simply failed to
>>> > >install it!!
>>> > >
>>> > >John Roberts
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >-----Original Message-----
>>> > >From: Eric S. Eberhard
>>> <<<mailto:flash at vicsmba.com%3Eflash at vicsmba.com?>mailto:flash at vicsmba.com>flash at vicsmba.com>
>>> > >To: virtualvairs
>>> <<<mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org%3Evirtualvairs at corvair.org?>mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org>virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>> > >Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:30 am
>>> > >Subject: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >I am always puzzled by this discussion which comes up every so
>>> > >often. The car was designed well from the factory. If you have
>>> > >everything correct -- all the shrouds as well as seals and so forth,
>>> > >there is no better system. I am in AZ, totally bone-stock, at
>>> > >altitude (3500-8000 feet), summer temps of 110 ... and I NEVER have
>>> > >even gotten remotely close to overheating. Our speed limit is 75 and
>>> > >I can go up a 6% grade at 80, no over heating. From my 3500 to 7500
>>> > >feet happens in 6 miles, no overheat even at 80.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >Eric S. Eberhard
>>> >(928) 567-3727 Voice
>>> >(928) 567-6122 Fax
>>> >(928) 301-7537 Cell
>>> >
>>> >Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>>> >Metropolis Support, LLC
>>> >
>>> >For Metropolis support and VICS MBA
>>> >Support!!!!
>>> <<http://www.vicsmba.com%3Ehttp://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com
>>> >
>>> >For
>>> >pictures:
>>> ><<http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html%3Ehttp://www.vicsmba.co
>>> m/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>>> >
>>> >(You can see why we love this state :-) )
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>Eric S. Eberhard
>>>(928) 567-3727 Voice
>>>(928) 567-6122 Fax
>>>(928) 301-7537 Cell
>>>
>>>Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>>>Metropolis Support, LLC
>>>
>>>For Metropolis support and VICS MBA
>>>Support!!!! <http://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com
>>>
>>>For
>>>pictures:
>>><http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>>>
>>>(You can see why we love this state :-) )
>>>
>>
>>
>>Eric S. Eberhard
>>(928) 567-3727 Voice
>>(928) 567-6122 Fax
>>(928) 301-7537 Cell
>>
>>Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>>Metropolis Support, LLC
>>
>>For Metropolis support and VICS MBA Support!!!! http://www.vicsmba.com
>>
>>For pictures: http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>>
>>(You can see why we love this state :-) )
>>
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