<VV> VirtualVairs Digest, Vol 56, Issue 159
Ron Moller
zippermoller at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 28 12:56:20 EDT 2009
Hi Mike;
Your '69 vert should be there.
It was nice to see you this weekend.
We made it home w/no trouble, but then we have an early,HA HA
All the best Ron & Marion
PS We missed Carole this year.
________________________________
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Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 11:59:32 AM
Subject: VirtualVairs Digest, Vol 56, Issue 159
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Uniquely unstable ?!!! (Tony Underwood)
2. Re: Uniquely unstable ?!!! (Tony Underwood)
3. Re: Viton at NASA - not much Corvair (jvhroberts at aol.com)
4. Re: Viton at GM (jvhroberts at aol.com)
5. Re: Old-time oil spray rustproofing question (Charles Cromwell)
6. Still More Re: Battery Explosion (FrankCB)
7. Re: Wireing needs continued (airvair at earthlink.net)
8. 50 anniversary concours 2010 (Michael Kovacs)
9. Re: Still More Re: Battery Explosion (corvairduval at cox.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:49:50 -0400
From: Tony Underwood <tony.underwood at cox.net>
Subject: Re: <VV> Uniquely unstable ?!!!
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090927224639.03242a00 at pop.east.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 09:01 PM 9/27/2009, Sethracer at aol.com wrote:
>
>
>In a message dated 9/27/2009 5:44:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>ral1963 at comcast.net writes:
>
>Watch the first video and pay close attention to the time frame between
>1:43
>and 1:46....
>
>Paused at 1:46 the drivers rear tire has been throw in the air...completely
>off the ground by several inches with suspension hanging at full travel.
>
>The car appears to have been "helped" by some unseen forces..litterally
>being blown into the air on the corner to "help" it spin out...
>
>Please look at this and tell me I am seeing things....
>
>Rick
>
>
>
>
>The illustration in Nader's book shows the wheel at a droop angle that
>cannot be reached without removing the rear shock absorber. Ralph Nader is a
>liar for allowing that drawing. I wouldn't be surprised if the car had the
>rear shocks removed as well.
Again, check the 4-door on its roof later in the clip. Check how
far the tires have sprung.
I don't think that car had any shocks on it either. Or if it did,
they were wrong.
tony..
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:53:37 -0400
From: Tony Underwood <tony.underwood at cox.net>
Subject: Re: <VV> Uniquely unstable ?!!!
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090927225204.03260b18 at pop.east.cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 09:01 PM 9/27/2009, I erroneously wrote:
>
>
Again, check the 4-door on its roof later in the clip. Check how
far the tires have sprung.
-- Sorry, the 2nd car was a coupe, not a 4-door. In fact, it
appeared to be the same car as what was spun around that dippy corner
in the wet earlier.
tony..
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:05:33 -0400
From: jvhroberts at aol.com
Subject: Re: <VV> Viton at NASA - not much Corvair
To: bryan at skiblack.com
Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <8CC0E4B1D51F6E9-33F4-3DB0 at webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Good to know. The SRB casings are actually made of steel. As I said, based solely on material properties, Viton is good stuff. However, the joint design demanded more than the O rings were good for. If the casing stretched less, if there was more interference, etc., they would've held. And then there's the issue of NASA management ignoring partial failure on previous launches, and not addressing these, and these were at acceptable temperatures! Material properties are but one element of this sort of design.
But enough about the Space Shuttle.
For us, the appropriate grades of Viton have existed before the Corvair was designed to make O ring issues nonexistent. Like you pointed out.
John Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: Bryan Blackwell <bryan at skiblack.com>
To: jvhroberts at aol.com
Cc: Virtual Vairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Sent: Sun, Sep 27, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: <VV> Viton at NASA - not much Corvair
FYI, the SRBs certainly did use Viton, and Dr. Feynman famously demo'd that it's not elastic enough in below freezing temps, which the shuttle saw the night before the crash. The crash has been pretty conclusively shown to have been caused by temperature related failure of the Viton o-rings coupled with flexing of the booster joints on liftoff.?
?
See:?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster?
http://www.fotuva.org/online/frameload.htm?/online/challenger.htm?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qAi_9quzUY?
?
Now, a Corvair doesn't have the same requirements as a shuttle booster. The Viton is effective in our relatively stationary joints, versus a booster joint that sees enough pressure to throw a shuttle into orbit and actually bows the aluminum case out on ignition.?
?
If you'd like a good read, you can go to my site and search for Classic Feynman and get a copy from Amazon. It includes a CD of one of his lectures about his experiences on the Manhattan Project.?
?
--Bryan?
?
Bryan Blackwell bryan at skiblack.com?
http://autoxer.skiblack.com/?
?Corvairs: '62 700 Wagon, '64 Greenbrier, '65 Corsa, '66 Corsa?
?'69 Road Runner, '09 Ford F-150, '99 Neon R/T?
"Why do something if you're not going to obsess about it?"?
?
?
On Sep 27, 2009, at 8:30 PM, jvhroberts at aol.com wrote:?
?
> Not sure if the SRBs used Viton, but it wasn't cold enough for any > of the commercially available formulations to fail based solely on > material properties.?
?
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:07:31 -0400
From: jvhroberts at aol.com
Subject: Re: <VV> Viton at GM
To: dpleau at wavecable.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <8CC0E4B63DB75A9-33F4-3DF0 at webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Heck, at -30F, Viton MAY leak, until the engine warms up, and as soon as it gets anywhere near 0F, the leak will stop! Which would take, what, 45 seconds? LOL
John Roberts
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Pleau <dpleau at wavecable.com>
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Sent: Sun, Sep 27, 2009 9:33 pm
Subject: Re: <VV> Viton at GM
If I drive any of my Corvairs where it is -30, I'll take heed and put Buna-N
back in. The Viton will most likely be there for the rest of the cars life!
dp
-----Original Message-----
From: virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org
[mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org] On Behalf Of Jay Pitchford
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 5:15 PM
To: Sethracer at aol.com
Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: Re: <VV> Viton at GM
I have a buddy who worked at GM as an engineer right out of Purdue. He
remembers (less than fondly) the low temp tests in the Great White North.
-30 F type stuff.
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 7:25 PM, <Sethracer at aol.com> wrote:
> Bob Benzinger addressed the Viton issue at the Flagstaff Convention. He
> said that they tested Viton O-rings and they failed the low temperature
> testing in Canada. I guess the Viton (of the time) wouldn't seal at low
> temps? -
> He didn't elaboate, as I recall. I have found Viton to work fine here in
> lowland California.
>
> Seth Emerson
>
> C's the Day! - Corvair, Camaro, Corvette
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 05:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Cromwell <corvairguy2 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: <VV> Old-time oil spray rustproofing question
To: dennis dorogi <dfamily at fairpoint.net>, Tom Willcox
<bakwudz at rcn.com>, virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <459493.70457.qm at web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hello all
Way back when. We use to mix kerosene and used motor oil 50 50 and spray the under carriage of customers
cars.I use to spray my whole car and then whipe it down. You can do it with a paint gun.
I live in the north east.We use planty of salt here in the winter.
Chuck
----- Original Message ----
From: dennis dorogi <dfamily at fairpoint.net>
To: Tom Willcox <bakwudz at rcn.com>; virtualvairs at corvair.org
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 6:09:36 PM
Subject: Re: <VV> Old-time oil spray rustproofing question
Many years ago I bought a long nozzled spray gun that was designed to spray
oil. I am sure a similar gun is made today.? You just use dirty oil drained
from a vehicle.? It just takes about two quarts to do the underside of a
vehicle, spray inside doors etc.? It is an extremely messy job but it is
very effective if done once a year (before winter).? It makes working on
the vehicle rather dirty but I found that it does as good a job as anything
to preserve the undercarriage.? I live about 60 miles from Buffalo in ski
country.? We usually get about twice as much snow as Buffalo and salt is
used heavily.? The undercarriage on my 74 econoline is in next to perfect
condition, but very oily.? It is cheap, very labor intensive, but effective.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Willcox" <bakwudz at rcn.com>
To: "VirtualVairs list" <virtualvairs at skiblack.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 6:28 PM
Subject: <VV> Old-time oil spray rustproofing question
> Was wondering what the best method is to do this--what is used to make the
> oil sprayable, what ratio, and what to use as a sprayer?
>
> Need to get ready for winter!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Willcox
> Allentown, PA
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:18:03 -0400
From: FrankCB <frankcb at aol.com>
Subject: <VV> Still More Re: Battery Explosion
To: "Gary Swiatowy" <gswiatowy at rochester.rr.com>,
virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <e1143fde.1c7b.4bbb.abc4.215c11e90eb3 at aol.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii
Gary,
A battery tender supplies the battery with a maintenance charge of only 13.5 volts while an alternator on a running engine easily supplies 14.2 volts and even higher when cold. Which one do you think will be more likely to "generate some fumes from the battery". Don't try to start the car with the battery charger (or tender) still connected. Disconnect it first, leave the engine open to ventilate for a few minutes while you make sure the battery connections are sound and only then try to start the car.
Lead-acid batteries in good condition typically lose 10% of their charge for every MONTH they receive no charging assuming there is NO connective drain on the battery. So SIX months means more than HALF the battery's charge is gone. If it wasn't in top-notch condition to start with, the loss is even worse.
As you say, it's a GREAT idea to wear safety goggles when working on batteries.
Frank "not always fully charged" Burkhard
In a message dated 09/27/09 07:39:38 Eastern Daylight Time, gswiatowy at rochester.rr.com writes:
One reason I do not beleive in a battery tender is it generates some fumes
from the battery.
A marginal connection at the terminal and hitting the key can cause your
accident.
If a battery is bad, it's bad. If it's good, it will hold it's own charge
for 6 month's without a tender and the terminal disconnected.
I have blown up my share of batteries, twice while looking directly at them
and attaching jumper cables(thank god I wear glasses).
And one that happened similar to your incident, under a closed hood by
turning the key.
None of mine though happened in a Corvair.
Gary Swiatowy
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:46:10 -0400
From: "airvair at earthlink.net" <airvair at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: <VV> Wireing needs continued
To: "jvhroberts at aol.com" <jvhroberts at aol.com>, tony.underwood at cox.net,
virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <380-220099128144610640 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I've had three dozen late models over the course of the last 41 years and
recall only one being a problem - and that only because the former owner
had severely abused it. Replaced it and had no further problem. As Tony's
experience indicates, treat it well and there'll be no problem. So what's
the matter with your?
-Mark
> [Original Message]
> From: <jvhroberts at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: <VV> Wireing needs continued
>
> Every LM has a functionally flawless terminal block? You may want to
recheck that assessment. I've had trouble on three LMs.
>
> John Roberts
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Underwood <tony.underwood at cox.net>
> To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
> Sent: Sun, Sep 27, 2009 1:40 pm
> Subject: Re: <VV> Wireing needs continued
>
> At 12:32 PM 9/27/2009, John Howell wrote:
> >Well this little Red Plastic terminal point has served without failure on
> >all of my cars for over 40 years so why would I want to change to
something
> >different now ? What more could you ask of such a simple part ?
>
> Not only does every late model here still have its own HLRPT still
> working just fine, a couple of earlies have them as well, retrofitted
> when the alternators replaced the generators and wire harness
> sections from lates got grafted into the early engine bay.
>
> Convenient spot on the unibody rail below the battery box... looks
> like it grew there.
>
> And the ones installed in the earlies were used, not new... still
> work. Keep battery acid off them and clean them up every decade or
so...
>
> tony..
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 08:23:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Kovacs <kovacsmj at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: <VV> 50 anniversary concours 2010
To: VV <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Message-ID: <238098.74934.qm at web82006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
?I was just at the annual VICE meeting in Vermont. The editor and chief of Hemmings, Richard Lentinello, was there as our guest. He related that the Corvair will be one of the features cars at the July 2010 Concours in Vermont.?He'd like to see a representation of each of the basic models?produced. This is a Concours, they vett the cars first so only?well restored?could be considered.
?More info will follow in Hemmings.
MIKE KOVACS
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:59:03 -0400
From: "corvairduval at cox.net" <corvairduval at cox.net>
Subject: Re: <VV> Still More Re: Battery Explosion
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Message-ID: <380-22009912815593124 at M2W016.mail2web.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I don't get what you are trying to say to Gary. If you mean which will
produce MORE hydrogen, then yes the battery tender will produce less than a
high current charger or the car's alternator. But, the battery tender HAS
to produce some hydrogen. So, they BOTH "generate some fumes from the
battery". Enough to ignite.
Also, if the door is open, or there is a newer stereo in the car, fiddling
with the battery connections will produce a spark, so don't do it when the
battery is just off charge. Do it after the compartment ventilates.
Frank DuVal
The "Other Frank", but also half charged
Original Message:
-----------------
From: FrankCB frankcb at aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 10:18:03 -0400
To: gswiatowy at rochester.rr.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV> Still More Re: Battery Explosion
Gary,
A battery tender supplies the battery with a maintenance charge of
only 13.5 volts while an alternator on a running engine easily supplies
14.2 volts and even higher when cold. Which one do you think will be more
likely to "generate some fumes from the battery". Don't try to start the
car with the battery charger (or tender) still connected. Disconnect it
first, leave the engine open to ventilate for a few minutes while you make
sure the battery connections are sound and only then try to start the car.
Lead-acid batteries in good condition typically lose 10% of their
charge for every MONTH they receive no charging assuming there is NO
connective drain on the battery. So SIX months means more than HALF the
battery's charge is gone. If it wasn't in top-notch condition to start
with, the loss is even worse.
As you say, it's a GREAT idea to wear safety goggles when working on
batteries.
Frank "not always fully charged" Burkhard
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