<VV> painting

[Tony Underwood]

At 05:46 PM 9/22/2009, corvairduval at cox.net wrote:

><<All paint you can buy for application not in a factory is aftermarket
>paint. ALL auto <<paint has "For Professional Use Only" or some such
>disclaimer on the package. That <<paint was for normal spray application
>and air dry, just like all the other lacquer <<available at the time from
>auto paint distributors.


I understand that...



>Also, there is no GM paint. GM does <<not
>manufacture paint.


I understand THAT as well.   GM obviously never 
made paint.   This stuff was RM according to the 
fellow I got it from.  It came from within a GM 
facility across the northern border.  It was 
paint that never was used, leftover.

It was not purchased from any retailer.    I 
don't wanna say anymore about how I got the paint.



>It is sourced from PPG, Dupont, R-M, etc. These
>manufacturers <<make both the paint used at the plant (oem TYPE) and
>aftermarket paint,

This wasn't an aftermarket thing...   ;)


><<Of course, the repaired cars had to be buffed,


I was told by the fellow (also saw in a 
publication somewhere) that as necessary they 
polished the broad surfaces with a slurry of 
pumice powder with large cotton pads, and that 
this was standard practice for the bodies coming out of the paint line.


>And it <<would amaze people to know how many cars have repairs from
>the factory.


Wouldn't surprise me at all, seen the results in 
"original" cars that had been repaired previously.

...remember that idiotic lawsuit for millions of 
bucks involving a BMW?  It had received a factory 
partial repaint before delivery, bought new by 
some legal sort (attorney?) and later involved in 
a fenderbender, shop told the owner that the 
previous repaint looked real good, owner flipped out.

Either way, odds are that a percentage of the 
cars are gonna get nicked or scratched before 
they get out the door.   Or, the paint just 
didn't go on well to begin with.   (still 
shouldn't be worth the consideration of a million 
buck lawsuit, which last I heard got thrown out)


 > Aftermarket (refinish market) lacquer never held up well.


>Some of it did... ;)   It depended a lot on where
>the paint came from.   Even GM lacquer didn't
>last worth a damn during the later years.   But
>earlier on, it was some tough stuff.
>
><<Sorry, I have never seen aftermarket lacquer hold up outside here in
>Virginia. In a <<garage, great. Excellent show car finish.


I was talking about lacquer from Back When... 
1950s and '60s vintage stuff.   THAT lacquer 
seemed to last a helluva lot longer, even in the 
weather, than what's been available for decades 
now.    My brother had a '67 Cougar that had been 
popped early in its life and repainted dark 
metallic green (had been some tacky 
"metallic-pea" green if the underhood and trunk 
lid were any indication) in lacquer.   I don't 
know what that paint was (other than its being 
lacquer) but it was still glossy and it spent its 
life outdoors and this was in the 1990s that it 
came to live at my place for a few months.   The 
car had been sitting a long time behind Mom's 
house (brother was out of town working for the 
state) and the paint had dulled so when it came 
to my place to get those idiotic sequential turn 
signal tail lights fixed so it would pass 
inspection (only turn signals I ever saw that 
used an electric motor to make them blink) I 
washed and waxed it and it glowed.

The car's paint was metallic and it had held up 
all those years and it WAS indeed lacquer.   I 
marveled at the stuff and how it looked with 
nothing but wash and wax.  ...wish the lacquer on 
the '60 Monza would have held up like that Cougar repaint.

Or, maybe my painting skills just suck...



>Now:
>
>Not sure what's the standard clear coat for a
>lacquer color coat today... I imagine some sort
>of catalytic.
>
><<No, only lacquer clear is recommended over lacquer base.


Yet I keep seeing people getting away with 
urethane clear over lacquer while other people 
rant about peeling...  I still think it's wet 
sanding that gets the stuff to stick.  I've not 
done it, always used lacquer clear.


have some of the stuff that I used to repaint the
>front of my sister's '86 Camaro.  Both the color
>coat and clear are Lacquer... from the Berglund
>Chevy bodyshop.   Admittedly that was almost 10 years ago...    ;)
>
><<Back then you could buy lacquer in Virginia, not now.


You can still buy lacquer in VA.    ;)   I have a 
gallon of PPG black that got picked up recently, 
admittedly from a vendor that had a bunch sitting 
on their shelf they were trying to move because 
nobody was buying lacquer anymore and it was 
discounted.    Paid 60 bucks and some change for 
the gallon, just because it was there, didn't 
need it.   Anyway, I have it, eventually it will end up on something.


>The paint you have
>is not GM, but <<PPG, Dupont,


Of COURSE it's not "GM" paint.   ;)  The stuff 
that came from the dealership (so it would match 
the car) was Dupont.  I still have about a quart 
of it left over.   That, and the same amount of clear.

And it stated on the label to NOT wet sand the 
basecoat...   which IMHO kinda flies in the face 
of std practice.   Anyway I did it in spite of 
the "do not" and it looked good.


>etc supplied not only to a Chevy dealer, but
>ANY bodyshop. That funky Ford <<color with the pigment also used in
>treasury notes


Chromalusion...   which is too friggin' expensive 
in my opinion to even rate a moment's 
consideration.   Besides, it looks odd and bland 
no matter what color it turns, in whichever sort of lighting.


>was the only controlled distribution <<paint I've seen. And
>don't tell me you think a dealership can buy better paint than <<anyone
>else. I thought only Honda owners were that brainwashed! ggg


...never said they did.   ;)   And the only Honda 
I ever owned was (is) a motorcycle.



>...interesting that the tag on the side says to
>not wetsand but apply clearcoat directly over the
>base coat after it flashes well.   I think I'd
>still wanna wetsand.  ...call me kooky...
>
><<New BC/CC systems do not sand between coats, as they are designed that
>way. Of course <<the base is very flat, no gloss, so no need to break the
>gloss by sanding.


That's what one would expect but the basecoat red 
for the Camaro shined after applying.  And yes I 
cut it correctly.  The "old school" in me felt 
that the topcoat shouldn't go onto anything that 
shined... so I wet sanded it.


>Sanding new <<basecoat will disturb the
>color/metallic/pearl laydown, as the paint film is very thin. <<You WILL
>see the effect of sanding if you sand basecoat without another drop coat of
><<color to blend.


Goes without saying... ;)


The ragtop outside got wet sanded until the final 
covercoat went on it.    Blotches result otherwise...



>...another reason to shoot lacquer if you have to
>do it without a space suit.   Several guys local
>who switched to cat paints thinking they didn't
>need the suit have met their maker before their time because of it...
>
><<YMMV, but if you paint outside, a good chemical mask (that seals) is all
>you need. Now, p<<aint several cars a day in a booth and I want a spacesuit
>with a fresh air mask.


Yeah... it's dismal seeing what happens to a guy 
with liver cancer.  Then another... and 
another.  Three different guys, all bit urethane 
proponents, all out of it now and two are gone already.


>Lacquer won't kill you... it just makes you ditzy.
>
><<Lacquer still effects your liver. Wear a mask.


I always liked the way the mask would "dot up" 
where your nostrils were...  makes you think 
about what would have ended up in your nose.


 >Lacquer just dries by evaporation of the solvent, so most lacquer paint


>...which is basically acrylic plastic...
>
><<Now, but it originally came from grinding the lac beetle shell....


Shell of Lac beetle...   ground to a powder and 
dissolved in alcohol, which is why the stuff was called Shellac ;)


> >can be revived with fresh thinner and time.
>
><<I was talking about reviving old paint in a can.

...thought you were talking about wet sanding 
(nonmetalic) faded lacquer and then hitting it 
with a spray of thinner to reflow the stuff, got 
away with that a time or two.  :)

Never enamel though, once it dries it's done for good.


>Paint on a car is hard
>to revive and <<shoot through a gun again! gggg


My old buddy Dallas Mangus and I once ground off 
so much paint from a red '65 coupe that we'd 
joked about how we oughta vacuum it back up and 
recut it with thinner and shoot it back on again, 
only less of it.    That car had paint on it so 
thick it looked almost like it was coated in red body filler.



>But, lacquer thinner will
>soften the lacquer paint on <<the car. It does try to go back into
>solution, just not useable.


It won't melt again but it will reflow a bit as 
long as it hasn't gone bad and started to 
decompose and crack and check and curse you and 
taunt you and steal money from your wallet when 
you're not looking.   Then it will hit on your 
girlfriend.   Bad lacquer is just plain bad, period.


>I have lots of 10+ <<year old paint on the
>shelf and it amazes me how much is still useable.


...like this contraband stuff that got liberated from who knows where... ;)

I have other ancient lacquers that on occasion 
I'll hit with some extra thinner if they feel 
"thick" when I give the cans an occasional shake.

One can of Dupont white lacquer in the old style 
label is STILL pretty decent stuff although it's 
really getting old, in its second can now because 
the original can began leaking a few years ago 
because of surface rust.   I used about a pint or 
so out of the can to repaint the top of my 
brother's '71 Dart after we rid it of its 
decomposing vinyl top.   That was about 1982 (I 
was still married then, soon to be x-wife griped 
about the mess) and the paint was old then... and 
I still have the rest of it on the shelf.

I was originally gonna use it to paint the '60 4-door...   HA!   As if...  ;)

(another game plan is in the works involving a non-lacquer solution)



>The fact that you can end up with a fairly decent
>driver quality paint job with lacquer shot in the
>yard is WHY I used it to begin with.   I don't
>have a spray booth nor an enclosure empty enough
>to contain a car and the necessary hardware to
>paint in.   And I can NOT justify 2000-3000 bucks
>for a "nice" paint job by a shop
>
><<Neither do I. I did Ashley's new ride in the driveway in August, using
>BC/CC urethane. <<Funny, the PPG distributor didn't have a reducer rated
>for 150° F surface temperature

Humm...  what kinda shoddy service is 
that?   Doesn't everyone shoot in August noonday 
sun?   Easier to see your errors that way...  and 
you can reheat your lunch on the sidewalk at the same time.


><<that I was painting. Dark Blue, bright
>august sun. One could sand and buff it to a <<smooth gloss, but it looks
>fine in the "not a sheet of glass" gloss.


The nice thing about urethanes is that buff 
ability.   :)    Although I've seen urethane shot 
onto a hot car that ended up like a washboard.  (wasn't me what done it) ;)

I'd still not wanna try shooting it on hot 
fenders no matter what reducer.   Not just orange 
peel... you get pigskin if you try it.   BTDT.


>or the bargain
>basement "pick from these 5 pastels" shops like
>Earl's...  a guy I worked with had his Olds
>painted (white) at Earl's and first time he
>washed the car after that the paint came off in sheets.
>
><<Surface prep is the difference. You could prep the surface and get a
>cheap paint job to <<last.


This shop had the standing disclaimer on the wall 
in the office for customers to make sure they 
washed the car before bringing it in for the paint job.


...otherwise they shot right on top of the 
dirt... I'm serious.  I think my buddy's Olds had 
been waxed sometime in its distant past and he 
mistakenly believed they would have at least scuffed it first.

Of course, it was (cheap) enamel over lacquer 
which on its best day is hard pressed to stay put.



>There is no labor money to pay people in a $200
>paint job today.


...remember when Earl's would paint yer car fer 
only $39.95!...?   I don't see how they could 
have afforded the paint alone at that price, much 
less the salary of the guy waving the gun 
around.   Then I saw how they bought paint... ;)

Meanwhile, I continue to stumble along in my own 
jackleg style making do on the cheap while hoping 
for the best.  So far, my eyes still both point 
in the same direction, most times.   Usually I'll 
stand upwind, just in case, so as to not be 
blowing car colored boogers into the tissues after supper.



tony..