<VV> painting

[corvairduval at cox.net]

I hate to make this message longer, but answers need to be inserted into
the body:
Frank DuVal
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Tony Underwood tony.underwood at cox.net



At 09:01 AM 9/21/2009, Frank DuVal wrote:
>Tony:
>
>You are comparing OEM paint to aftermarket paint.


EXACTLY.


>They were always two
>different animals, even when produced by the same company (Dupont, RM ,
>PPG). OEM paint always held up better than what is sold through paint
>stores to refinish cars.


And THAT is why I used the stuff I used on the 
'62 ragtop.  It came from a GM source...  even 
had disclaimers on the plain yellow label 
"commercial application not for resale".

<<All paint you can buy for application not in a factory is aftermarket
paint. ALL auto <<paint has "For Professional Use Only" or some such
disclaimer on the package. That <<paint was for normal spray application
and air dry, just like all the other lacquer <<available at the time from
auto paint distributors. Also, there is no GM paint. GM does <<not
manufacture paint. It is sourced from PPG, Dupont, R-M, etc. These
manufacturers <<make both the paint used at the plant (oem TYPE) and
aftermarket paint, used everywhere <<else including repaint at the factory
for repair work. They do not strip out the cars <<so the body can be
repaired using OEM type paint.

I guess we'll see how it holds up.


>The lacquer applied by GM was a reflow type
>paint. They didn't buff every car!


...uh, not every car but they buffed 
Corvairs.   The cars were polished with a pumice 
slurry and buffed.   This I was told by someone who did it.

<<Of course, the repaired cars had to be buffed, as they used the paint you
use. And it <<would amaze people to know how many cars have repairs from
the factory.


>They heated the bodies to 200° F or
>better after applying the paint, so it would flow to a gloss.


It was also to cure and harden the paint.


>That is
>why they were painted on the assembly line before wiring and interior
>installation. Aftermarket (refinish market) lacquer never held up well.


Some of it did... ;)   It depended a lot on where 
the paint came from.   Even GM lacquer didn't 
last worth a damn during the later years.   But 
earlier on, it was some tough stuff.

<<Sorry, I have never seen aftermarket lacquer hold up outside here in
Virginia. In a <<garage, great. Excellent show car finish.

Now:

Not sure what's the standard clear coat for a 
lacquer color coat today... I imagine some sort 
of catalytic.  

<<No, only lacquer clear is recommended over lacquer base.

<<http://www.tcpglobal.com/docs/ppgddlp.pdf

 But along the way I've seen a 
variety of different basecoat-clearcoat paints 
that were LACQUER.   ...supplied via GM to 
dealerships for "factory original" matching 
repaints following collision damage etc, still 
have some of the stuff that I used to repaint the 
front of my sister's '86 Camaro.  Both the color 
coat and clear are Lacquer... from the Berglund 
Chevy bodyshop.   Admittedly that was almost 10 years ago...    ;)

<<Back then you could buy lacquer in Virginia, not now. The paint you have
is not GM, but <<PPG, Dupont, etc supplied not only to a Chevy dealer, but
ANY bodyshop. That funky Ford <<color with the pigment also used in
treasury notes was the only controlled distribution <<paint I've seen. And
don't tell me you think a dealership can buy better paint than <<anyone
else. I thought only Honda owners were that brainwashed! ggg

...interesting that the tag on the side says to 
not wetsand but apply clearcoat directly over the 
base coat after it flashes well.   I think I'd 
still wanna wetsand.  ...call me kooky...

<<New BC/CC systems do not sand between coats, as they are designed that
way. Of course <<the base is very flat, no gloss, so no need to break the
gloss by sanding. Sanding new <<basecoat will disturb the
color/metallic/pearl laydown, as the paint film is very thin. <<You WILL
see the effect of sanding if you sand basecoat without another drop coat of
<<color to blend.



>Much easier to use. I like Deltron DBU base
>colors. It is very similar to Sikkens in smell, application, etc. I even
>use both brands on the same car if I need two tones, stripes, etc. Now
>it is time to learn waterbase!


...been thinking about waterbase paints... it's 
the clear coat that remains liverkiller.

(unless someone somewhere made a clear that's 
durable and won't dissolve your vital organs)

...another reason to shoot lacquer if you have to 
do it without a space suit.   Several guys local 
who switched to cat paints thinking they didn't 
need the suit have met their maker before their time because of it...

<<YMMV, but if you paint outside, a good chemical mask (that seals) is all
you need. Now, p<<aint several cars a day in a booth and I want a spacesuit
with a fresh air mask.

Lacquer won't kill you... it just makes you ditzy.

<<Lacquer still effects your liver. Wear a mask.

I can deal with ditzy...     heeheehee!!!!




>Lacquer just dries by evaporation of the solvent, so most lacquer paint


...which is basically acrylic plastic...

<<Now, but it originally came from grinding the lac beetle shell....


>can be revived with fresh thinner and time.


Sometimes... ;)   Depends on how bad it oxidized 
and how much metallic content.   A wetsand and 
shot of thinner on a primary color lacquer can 
bring it right back again...  but it doesn't work 
very well on something like copper or silver or 
even LeMans Blue once Nature gets a grip on it.

>Enamels dry through
>oxidation, they usually cannot be revived as a chemical change has
occurred.


...nor can they be brought back by buffing in 
most instances, particularly metallics.   Might 
as well strip it and repaint because you're not 
gonna bring back oxidized enamel metallics.

<<I was talking about reviving old paint in a can. Paint on a car is hard
to revive and <<shoot through a gun again! gggg  But, lacquer thinner will
soften the lacquer paint on <<the car. It does try to go back into
solution, just not useable. I have lots of 10+ <<year old paint on the
shelf and it amazes me how much is still useable. 



Now:    All this is worthy of note in that I 
painted this convertible in the yard.   Under a 
mulberry tree.   No berries.   But it was 
shade... out of the sun.    One does NOT spray 
lacquer on a hot car, ever.   Not unless you want 
it to end up with a finish like non-slip bed liner.

The fact that you can end up with a fairly decent 
driver quality paint job with lacquer shot in the 
yard is WHY I used it to begin with.   I don't 
have a spray booth nor an enclosure empty enough 
to contain a car and the necessary hardware to 
paint in.   And I can NOT justify 2000-3000 bucks 
for a "nice" paint job by a shop 

<<Neither do I. I did Ashley's new ride in the driveway in August, using
BC/CC urethane. <<Funny, the PPG distributor didn't have a reducer rated
for 150° F surface temperature <<that I was painting. Dark Blue, bright
august sun. One could sand and buff it to a <<smooth gloss, but it looks
fine in the "not a sheet of glass" gloss.

or the bargain 
basement "pick from these 5 pastels" shops like 
Earl's...  a guy I worked with had his Olds 
painted (white) at Earl's and first time he 
washed the car after that the paint came off in sheets.

<<Surface prep is the difference. You could prep the surface and get a
cheap paint job to <<last. There is no labor money to pay people in a $200
paint job today.


Lacquer is work-intensive done the way I do it 
but it's so forgiving that it can be shot almost 
anywhere and still end up looking ok if you use 
even moderate care.    It's primary failing is 
the "advances" in technology which have made 
modern lacquers somewhat lacking in durability 
compared to what was once available... and I 
don't mean consumer-quality products vs 
commercial quality lacquer.   I've seen cars show 
up around here that got "small shop" lacquer 
repaints back before JFK was elected that still 
held onto a gloss after many years.     And they 
weren't hanger queens.   Lacquer today just isn't what it once was.

...which is why I collected up on some old 
lacquer while I could... at least the stuff that 
was still viable and it's easy to check it 
out.   Some of it came from an old paint & body 
shop that was shutting down after the owner 
retired... evidently eyeballs spinning in 
opposite directions or something from the fumes...



So, I do it on the cheap... and my boasting 
afterwards is not how much I spent on the work, 
but how little...   which is why the proper term 
is "jackleg".    However, sometimes Jackleg works 
and works well, and the end result is what 
matters, at least to me.  Your mileage may vary.





tony..


ps:   if this paint falls off the car after two 
years, I shan't bitch; I'll just paint it again     


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