<VV> Re: LM kick panel

[Mark Corbin]

Roy,

The bigblock hood is a poor example of a "specially designed" part, because it isn't. It's a regular production part, much the same as, say, a turbo decklid emblem. Nothing special there. Whereas a hardtop two-piece kick panel would be a seriously "specially designed" part. It would require at least a modification of the existing one-piece hardtop kickpanel part.'s die. Not something the factory would tool up for.

When I refered the convertible as an "afterthought", I wasn't refering to the body style being the afterthought, but rather the planning and coordination between the two to be the afterthought. And as I pointed out, had they known that the convertible was going to need that brace (which REQUIRES a two piece kickpanel), the hardtop most likely would have gotten a two-piece design as well - for cost consideration reasons, if not  because of part commonality reasons. It's simply much cheaper to commonize as many parts as possible, and run those parts like crazy. The higher the volume, the cheaper the part becomes to make.

The "cocktail shaker" dampers would, of necessity, be constructed different, because all those cars would differ in their harmonic resonance, which is the problem the dampers address. They are tuned for each vehicle type's particular hormonics. Again, a bad example on your part.

GM NEVER 'pisses away" money without (in their judgment) good reason. Those factors usually remain unknown to the general public. You've got to remember, I worked for GM for 30 years, so I KNOW how they think. And they won't spend a dime frivolusly (at least in their mind's eye.)

With the convertibles that I've worked on (either servicing, playing with, or parting out), I never encountered the amount of gray putty that you may have encountered. So all I can say is that the two-piece convertible doesn't need gobs of gray putty. What I was pointing out is that there CAN very well be material savings. The vent stack can be sealed with the smallest of sealant beads rather than the gobs of putty that are needed on the hardtop installation.

When you are refering to the two-piece system installed on a hardtop, are you saying that the convert parts were used, despite the hump in the kick panel? Because what I'm refering to would be a specially designed mold just for the hardtop version, similar to the convertible's panel. I would be totally skeptical of just such part having been built, other than for maybe the tech center labs, and those would indeed be one-off's.

Finally, the "build cars at all costs", regardless of not having a supply of  *correct* parts available would not be a decision that GM would take lightly.  Sure, it MAY happen from time to time. Usually, it involves an upgrade, like the radio incident you cited. But the kick panel would be hardpressed to qualify using that reason. That is the reason why I am skeptical, unless and until some of those are documented as flukes. And that is all I'm saying. To paraphrase the movie line, "show me the parts."

-Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: airvair at earthlink.net;J R Read_HML;virtualvairs at corvair.org
Cc: Mark Corbin
Sent: 10/19/2007 1:23:17 AM 
Subject: Re: LM kick panel


Mark,

"And a specially built part just for "several" LM's, for any reason, is totally impossible"
Since they did it with the big block hoods, specially designed for big block Corvettes, I would think the same logic could be applied to the Corvair line.

"But somewhere during the LM's designing, they found out that the convert would need some extra bracing in that area and that that bracing would affect the design of the kick panel. So they HAD to design the two-piece set of parts just for the convertible."
"I'd think that the factory would have elected to do a two-piece for the hardtops as well."
I doubt the convertible was really an after thought, look at all the chassis stiffening they had to do. The "cocktail shakers" I think are unique to the Corvair, Camaro & Firebird models. They added the brace at the kick panel area to stiffen the chassis. The coupe & sedan get their stiffness from the roof section. Why they didn't use the two piece design on the coupes may be due to the fact of no more development, and this was seen as a redesign but for the convertible it was needed????? Beats me. GM pisses away money in many ways, it just depends on who is counting and allocation.

If you look at the cocktail shakers used in the Corvair, they are so close to the Camaro design it is amazing. When I sold the cocktail shakers I had, I looked real hard at the Camaro design. Only the mounting brackets are a little different. If I could have sold these as Camaro parts I would have because at the time, Clark's was selling them at $27.00 each and the Camaro / Firebird shakers were going for $125.00 to $150.00 EACH on eBay. Here is where GM could have made one style for all three cars and didn't.

The convertible kick panels I have seen have used the same dum-dum as the coupes & sedans, so there is no real savings except maybe an ounce or two at most if at all.

A lot of people are missing the point, or maybe I didn't make it clear. All I say is I have seen the two piece design in unmolested coupes and I speculate they may have run short of the correct parts and substituted convertible parts to keep the production line moving.

I think this is key, KEEP THE PRODUCTION LINE MOVING AT ALL COSTS. If a worker doesn't finish installing all the screws or bolts for his operation, do you think he hits the stop the line button so he can finish the job? No way. Heck, they didn't finish welding in the passengers side brace on Jim's turbo convertible. I could have ripped it out by hand, it was only tacked in one spot. They did do a good job on the drivers side in welding the brace. If he installs a radio in a car when it wasn't ordered, he doesn't stop the line to remove it. The buyers gets a free radio. That one happened to my cousin Doug who ordered a radio delete Camaro, he got a free radio.

The bottom line is keep the production line moving and GM would do whatever they had to in order to keep the cars going out the door. So maybe a few convertible kick panels got put on coupes or sedans, at that point in time, who knew the difference, certainly not the new owner or even the dealership, just the guy that did it and maybe he was told to do it to keep the line moving.

Roy
-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Mark Corbin" <airvair at earthlink.net> 

While I don't doubt your sincerity, you'll have to pardon my skepticism. Of course, most LM's are at least 40 years old by now, so documenting something as "factory original" will be a challenge. But having worked for GM for 30 years and knowing how they operate, I am skeptical that ANY hardtop would have come with a two-piece kick panel assembly from the factory, even if the kick panel (cover) were a convertible part. And a specially built part just for "several" LM's, for any reason, is totally impossible IMHO. But, at this late stage in the game though, I guess anything is possible.

I've said over many years that I thought the convertable was almost an afterthought, and the proof is the kick panel situation. It's obvious to me that originally they thought the kick panel for the convertible would be the same for the hardtop. But somewhere during the LM's designing, they found out that the convert would need some extra bracing in that area and that that bracing would affect the design of the kick panel. So they HAD to design the two-piece set of parts just for the convertible. Had this been known before the hardtop's parts had been released for production (especially WAY before), I'd think that the factory would have elected to do a two-piece for the hardtops as well.

Sure, after they found this flaw, they could have had the hardtop kick panels redesigned, but it's design was already "set in stone." Nonetheless, had I been there to see this all take shape, I would have put in a savings suggestion. Just think of how many 55 gallon drums of that gray dum-dum they would have used in almost a quarter million cars just in one year! That would have more than offset the cost of making a new pair of molds so that the hardtop could use the convert's vent stack, but their own kick panel (cover). But I also suspect that why that didn't happen is because of management's order not to do any further development on the Corvair just after the '65's hit the market.

Yes, one can use a convert kick panel (cover) on a hardtop, but why? Too lazy to do it right? It's not difficult to cut the integral ventstack off a hardtop panel, so go ahead and do it. It's well worth the effort.

As far as the parts you said came from a 2-piece hardtop "factory" installation, I'd like to see them. 

(And I don't doubt the Corvette story, as I have had Corvette friends that have told me the same.)

-Mark



----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: J R Read_HML;airvair at earthlink.net;virtualvairs at corvair.org
Sent: 10/18/2007 2:38:34 AM 
Subject: Re: LM kick panel


JR,

The hump in the kick panel is so it can cover the added interior bracing used in the convertible. I'm working off memory here, as years ago I seem to remember I needed to complete the welding on the interior bracing on Jim Dodd's late turbo convertible when we restored it. The folks at GM never finished the job.

So in that light, convertible kick panels work in coupes / sedans as the hump covers a blank space. I guess you could add some bracing if you wanted.

Roy - Bayshore.

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "J R Read_HML" <hmlinc at sbcglobal.net> 

> OK... As I recall, the original question had to do with a 500 model. If I 
> were GM, I'd not be putting the Convert version in a 500 just because of the 
> additional costs involved. 
> 
> We all know that the "stack" as it has been referred to here (and which I 
> take to mean the air intake portion which contains the door for open/close) 
> is a separate piece (part) on the LM verts and that this is "integral" (read 
> that - all one piece) with the outer (the part that shows) piece on all 
> other models (2 dr or 4 dr), right? 
> 
> Are you telling me that a convert version can not be used in a 2/4 dr? I'm 
> afraid to ask... what HUMP are you talking about? What prevents use of the 
> vert kick panel on a 2/ 4 dr? 
> 
> Later, JR 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark Corbin" 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 7:19 PM 
> Subject: RE: Re: LM kick panel - VirtualVairs Digest, Vol 33, Issue 37 
> 
> 
> > Oooookay. So where did they get the kick panels? The coupe/4door kick 
> > panel 
> > doesn't have the hump in it like the convert does, but DOES have the 
> > integral vent stack. They'd have to have either modified the coupe/4door 
> > kick panel OR used the convert kick panel, which wouldn't fit right. 
> > 
> > The tech tip describes how to MODIFY the coupe/4door kick panel for use, 
> > something the factory would probably NEVER do. 
> > 
> > In other words, I'd have to see it to believe it. 
> > 
> > -Mark 
& gt; > 
> > 
> >> [Original Message] 
> >> Subject: Re: LM kick panel 
> >> 
> >> I have also found the "two / three piece style" in unmolested late model 
> > coupes. 
> >> 
> >> I'll bet these "convertible only" style vents are just like the big block 
> > hoods on small block mid 60's Corvettes. GM had them and used them to keep 
> > the production line moving. 
> >> 
> >> Roy - Bayshore 
> >> 
> >