<VV> E85 fuel (NO CORVAIR)

[Mark Noakes]

actually the prediction for the price of a barrel of oil is multiple hundreds of dollars within 5 years, which I assume is what all the ethanol stir is about.

Mark Noakes

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: FrankCB at aol.com
> To: airvair at richnet.net, ddpleau at msn.com
> Subject: Re: <VV> E85 fuel (NO CORVAIR)
> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:27:48 EST
> 
> 
>      While I see some value in considering NET energy, isn't the SELLING PRICE
> per unit of energy what really matters?  If the oil producing countries
> decide to raise the price per barrel from the current $60 to say $100 the NET
> energy won't change at all.  After all,  they raised the price 35 years ago from $3
> to $30.
>      I see a similar thing happening with the current prices for natural gas
> and electricity.  For many years, the price I paid for natural gas was about
> 1/4 of the price for electricity based on energy content.  Recently, however,
> the natural gas price is nearly HALF of the electric price.  Taking into account
> the relative efficiencies (my old gas-fired furnace is probably sending 40%
> of the natural gas energy up the chimney while electric heat is 100% efficient
> since NO energy goes up the chimney) it's nearly getting to the point where
> electric heat is approaching natural gas heat on a PRICE basis.
>      Since E-85 has about 70% of the energy value of gasoline (on a gallon
> basis), E-85 at $2 per gallon is equivalent to $2/70% = $2.86 for a gallon of
> gasoline.  This is assuming the same engine burns either fuel.  If the engine is
> modified (higher CR or higher boost or more timing, et al.) to benefit from
> the higher octane of E-85, it will do a more efficient job of utilizing E-85's
> lesser energy content to narrow the mpg difference between the 2 fuels.  In
> addition, the much greater cooling effect of evaporating E-85 in the intake tract
> would serve to produce an intercooling effect on a boosted engine.  Sort of
> like water-alcohol injection but without the water.<GGGG>
>      The governor of NY State (George Pataki) has recently announced a program
> to put alternative energy fuels like E-85 at service stations along the NY
> State Thruway.  In addition, plans are underway to construct a ethanol fuel
> plant in southern NJ, so maybe we will finally begin to see some E-85 for sale in
> the Northeast.
>      Frank "prefers to give my $ to Joe Corncob than to Osama Muhammed"
> Burkhard
> 
> In a message dated 2/23/06 9:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> airvair at richnet.net writes:
> I just finished a book entitled "What Energy Sources Should Be Pursued?"
> published by Greenhaven Press (www.gale.com/greenhaven or
> www.thomson.com). It's an anthology of several articles by
> well-credentialed people in several fields such as wind and solar power
> and alternate fuels.
> 
> The BIG problem as one of them points out is NET ENERGY. To use his
> illustration, if you only had a gallon of gas in your car, and it took a
> gallon of gas to get to the gas station and back, but they only had a
> gallon to sell you, then it wouldn't be worth going after. Hence, that
> is what net energy is about. Once we reach the point where it takes more
> energy to get the fossil fuels (such as oil, in crude, shale oil, etc.)
> than we get out of going after it, then the ballgame's over. Sure, we
> have potentially enough fossil fuels to last hundreds of years, but what
> nobody wants to talk about is the very REAL fact that we have reached
> the point of negative net energy.
> 
> Then there's the problems with electric, hydrogen, wind, solar, water,
> and even biofuel power. All have dubvious net energy issues, not to
> mention environmental problems that are often overlooked. All of these
> are further impacted by increasing population. Once there is no energy
> to produce enough food, the world's population will peak by virtue of
> starvation. And electric is incapable of powering large farm machinery
> or for that matter, passenger jets. Game over!
> 
> I found the book very worthwile reading. It certainly makes one think.
> 
> -Mark
> 
> Dennis & Debbie PLEAU wrote:
> >
> > It's my understanding and I'm no expert that it takes 1 BTU of energy to
> make 1 BTU of ethanol, by the time you grow the corn, haul it to the still and
> then get it to the tank farm.  You can ship petro all the way around the world
> and have a net gain in energy.
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Mark Noakes

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"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is usually a difference."--Anonymous

Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
-- Mark Twain.