<VV> body advice (long)

[Tony Underwood]

At 12:52 hours 06/18/2005, Ron Guy wrote:
>Eric,
>    I have been using what I consider to be the best body man there is on
>Corvairs and this is what he has taught me.
>1. Cut the front doglegs out and do a full inspection up through that area.
>Remove the fresh air vents and go in through that side also. Remove all
>rust, apply extend if needed, and get a coating on all the metal. Inspect
>the A pillar area closely for deterioration. Replace the metal if needed.


Bingo.   90% of all the rust that shows up in the front doglegs starts from 
inside.


>2. Remove the front and rear grille and inspect all down through the water
>flow paths. Remove all rust and apply extend if needed a good coating.

Earlies are bad for thick grime accumulating in the forward area channel 
which of course will rust through and allow water into the trunk.   '60 and 
'61 cars are pretty bad about this.

>3. Cut out the rear lower fenders and inspect for rust. Replace all thin or
>thinning metal and get a good coating on everything.


Late lower rear quarter under the battery is of course the worst.    This 
area also likes to collect debris over time and water can accumulate from 
several sources.   When those lower rear fenders fill with water, it sits 
there until it evaporates and that can take a long time.    Earlies don't 
have this problem which is why you seldom if ever see an early model Vair 
with a rear lower fender rusted out unless it's from the salt belt, and 
even then most of the rest of those cars usually is gone before the lower 
rears ever rust.


>4. Drill two (2) inch holes in each end of the rockers and inspect the
>interior.

Actually this isn't really necessary.   Just make sure the rocker drains 
are clear and that water won't accumulate.    You can run water into the 
rockers from the front air grill and watch to make sure the water runs out 
easily from the drains.    Rust in the rockers of lates isn't hard to 
spot...  just look for blisters on the rockers.   It's generally the case 
that lates don't have the rust problem in rockers that earlies usually 
have...  depending of course upon "demographics".   I've seen lates rusted 
too Hell and back with solid rockers...  while also seeing a late ragtop 
with the rockers almost completely gone but still has decent sheet metal 
otherwise.   Go figger.

Earlies also tend to rust the rockers easier if they're '60 and/or '61 
models, usually around the rear area below the quarter window although they 
can sometimes rust the entire length of the rocker.   Likewise Lakewoods 
which seem to really enjoy rusting out from inside about a foot ahead of 
the wheel well.    Clean those water drains...  clogs are what causes 
this.    I've seen people with earlies that still have solid rockers 
pouring engine oil into each side of the air intake grill and let it run 
down into the rockers and drain out the hole at the rear just ahead of the 
back tire, catching the oil in a pan, let it drip-dry overnight.   The 
inside of the rocker well wicks the oil up and around, keeps water from 
seeping into nooks and crannies where you don't want it.


>Clean rockers out. If needed, replace the rockers.


Now, for sake of mention:

Replacing the rockers in a late is NOT a pie job.   Be prepared to do a LOT 
of grinding, cutting, and welding and come supplied with plenty of 
patience.   Earlies aren't so bad, mainly because the metal is thinner than 
the late rockers and easier to manipulate...  although the early rockers 
are kinda hard to come by, have to rely upon NOS if you can find them 
(they're still out there) and of course you should prep the area inside the 
rockers with anything you can find to stop/prevent rust.    Late repro'ed 
rockers are readily available from vendors... but you still should 
rust-proof the inside area while you're at it.


>Sand blast if
>needed and get a good coating throughout. Put plastic plugs in the two inch
>holes you drilled and use them to flush out the rockers from time to 
>time.


This is only a viable practice if you INTEND to clean the rockers out 
regularly, and IF you drive the car often enough to have stuff accumulate 
inside the rocker channels.   Most of this (leaves etc) can be kept out 
simply by blocking the front air grill off with fine mesh screen, attached 
to the underside of the air grill.   That alone can make flushing out the 
rockers moot, since nothing larger than a match head can get in.   Running 
a hose into the air grill will flush the small stuff through the rockers 
and out the drain holes...  IF they've already been flushed of the big 
crap, depending of course on what managed to find its way into he rocker 
area in the first place.


>5. Pull all the carpet up and inspect the floorboards. Use replacement
>panels from the vendors for large area replacement and good metal patches
>for small repairs. Weld and grind. If you've read this far and are serious
>you shouldn't be doing the pop rivet crap.


Pop rivets are only useful for small localized holes.   And that's only if 
you don't have easy access to a welder.

Do not try  to use pop rivets to attach a larger panel unless you're really 
good at it and you use *steel* rivets plated with zinc of cadmium or 
something, anything, that keeps them from rusting.   No aluminum.    If 
you're gonna replace the floor panel with a repro from the vendors, find 
somebody to weld it in for you if you can't do it yourself.   You'll be 
glad you did.


>6. Remove the quarter windows and get down inside for inspection, cleaning
>and coating. This is the post side of the door and is structurally
>important. Repair as necessary.


The place to look is the lower run of the pillars where they attach to the 
tops of the rockers.   These areas NEED to be solid.    And you CAN clean 
this area out without having to dismember the quarter window 
mechanism.   It's no picnic to remove and reinstall all this 
stuff.   Access to the backside of the pillar can be had to spray rust 
preventative onto the area without gutting the forward section of the 
fender.   Now, repairs to this area from behind are a different 
matter.    Use your judgement.


>7. Drill one (1) inch holes in each side of the lower front body panel.
>Flush this area out and inspect the internal. Spray or mop POR or equal in
>this area.

Obviously you do this in "blind" spots only, NOT the areas you can reach 
from inside the trunk.


>8. Get Extend or similar products to flow through all the pinch welds. This
>will pay off in the long run.
>9. Use two part epoxy primers. My Dad always said, "Buy the best. You'll
>never regret it"

Ditto.

>If you find a lot of rot as you are inspecting the items listed above, then
>go "Ultra" with this car and find a better body to restore.


Here is where the gray area begins.

"Good" bodies are getting harder and harder to find.  It's coming to the 
point that it soon will not be practical to simply resort to discarding a 
body with rust and picking up another that's "good" unless you wanna drag 
one halfway across the country.    It could well end up that you fix the 
body you have or do without.   It's NOT impossible to repair rust and in 
many instances it's practical to do so as long as the rust tends to be 
localized and the car isn't "shot through".

I have seen cars sitting in private "junk yards" that ten years ago got 
passed over by people who took a look and said "That one's too rough for 
me."    Now, ten years later, someone comes along and jumps on the same car 
because it's better than most stuff they've been able to turn up these days.

Rust is relative.   People in Phoenix have become spoiled.    They should 
spend a little time on the east coast around the beaches of South Carolina 
or maybe the coastal areas of New England and see what those people have to 
deal with.

Moral of story:   Don't be too scared of rust... sometimes it's not as bad 
as it may seem.    There's a web site with a Monza convertible that was 
refurbished by a fellow  in Germany...   the car was suffering from the 
metal mites to the degree that most "purists" here would NEVER have 
considered looking twice at the car.   But its German owner obviously loved 
it, and he was a *welder*, and I mean a welder.   The guy did some good 
work on the car and did it WELL, and a Monza ragtop was given a new chance 
at life.

Perhaps the thing to do is to look at the car with the attitude of what it 
COULD be, not what it is.   Decide whether you want to do the work.   If 
you decide that the car is "too bad", consider where to find another that's 
better... and then go back and look again.    Then, either commit yourself 
to doing the work, or find something better... or do without.

Again, get educated on auto body construction and practical repair, and 
then decide whether the one you're looking at is actually "too bad".


>....I would like to hear what others do.


I'm not a professional.   I do it purely as a hobbyist pursuit...  however, 
I've done it pretty consistently over the years and I've sprayed around 
25-30 cars (most of them Corvairs) give or take a few.   I've done body 
work on at least as many, some of it rather involved and requiring some 
"mechanical assist" in severe cases (such as the red '69 Monza that got 
t-boned)... Vairs were built with some thick sheet metal compared to modern 
cars.   I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing and  I like to think I 
have produced some decent finished products.

Still, I'm just a jackleg...  ;)    The cars I do are daily drivers or 
weekend warriors, not professionally prepared show cars with epoxy paints 
shot from inside a space suit.  I paint with mostly lacquer...  I clearcoat 
metallics and some base colors, just polish the others, depending...   I do 
to suit myself, and I do the best I can.    If done right and cared for 
properly, lacquer can prove to be a good finish.   Lots depends on 
application and "cooking in" the paint afterwards.    I don't have a bake 
oven to cure the paint, so I have to rely on a hot summer sun to do it for 
me.   It *does* work... takes some time.

I do it because even 25 years ago when I started fooling around 
with  autobody and paint work, the costs of such were already rising to 
some severe degree for good work, and I didn't want to cough up the sort of 
money to pay what a good job cost.   So, I decided that I'd  learn what I 
needed to know in order to get the job done without having to scrounge up 
the bucks to get someone else to do it for me and then not knowing what I'd 
paid for in the first place... such as how much bondo was crammed into a 
crease instead of the metal  having been worked etc.

Another thing worth mentioning is that modern polyester fillers have gotten 
MUCH better than the original "Bondo" brand of filler, which would crack 
and chip after a while and did not stick quite as well as it should have... 
the modern name brand fillers are much better at staying in place and not 
cracking as well as being much more forgiving about how thick they are 
applied although it STILL holds that if you have to cake on filler more 
than 1/4" deep, you didn't do your job on the sheet metal.    Body fillers 
are a work aid, NOT a means to an end.

It helps to *enjoy* doing this sort of work.   I get along by having a good 
experience doing the work and seeing the improvements to what was 
there.   I feel like I've accomplished something...   and if you really 
enjoy the work, it's not really *work*.    It becomes fun.



tony..