<VV> Re: Turbo set up--performance orientation practical?
Mark Noakes
mark@noakes.com
Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:13:52 -0800
I've been following this thread as well since I am interested in doing as much as practically possible (yeah, that means I'm not sure where to draw the line either).
Though I grew up on the same 66 Corvair I now have, I have gotten used to driving a modified Corvette...and quite frankly have trouble with comments that the Corvair is hot enough as is...I tend to think my vette is too wimpy...will work on that one later...
I want to do a turbo vair more because I already have a V8 setup that is reasonably hot and want something different but still want to make a fairly high performance grade to avoid the boredom of stock.
My brother's 65 Corsa 140 was set up such that he could almost always beat his friend's late 60s 351 Mustang...if he could catch him off the line...but of course he also had trouble with breaking things like half shafts, etc... The Mustang was later destroyed in a street race against an out of town Camaro...not condoning the street racing, just saying that the Mustang that my brother used to beat wasn't a total wimp...it was set up and used for racing.
So I'm trying to find the optimum Corvair performance setup.
No thanks on the new cars regardless of hp; I'm not into big brother and all of the newer cars are starting to phase in black boxes that track everything you do...other than a govt truck backing into my parked vette, I haven't had an accident or ticket since 1976...so I don't have bad behavior to hide, but I still don't like it. So I don't expect to be buying a new anything any more.
Mark Noakes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric S. Eberhard" <flash@vicspdi.com>
To: "Norman C. Witte" <ncwitte@wittelaw.com>, FrankCB@aol.com, virtualvairs@corvair.org
Subject: RE: <VV> Re: Turbo set up--was mileage (mission creep)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:06:46 -0700
>
> OK -- I can't stay out of this any more!
>
> Mission creep! I'll say! Why would anyone buy a Corvair if they really
> want a FAST car? Buy a new Mustang or GTO or so ...
>
> Reliable and fun, however, is easy to do, and will result in what your
> original mission seemed to be ... stock with a little more pep.
>
> The number one best thing you can do is ignition -- replace the points with
> a Pertronix II, wires with 8mm wires, Pertronix Flamethrower II coil. If
> you feel crazy (and I usually do this) add an MSD 6a ignition. Use some
> really good plugs (I use Silverstone plugs, expensive but never foul).
>
> I would put in the Dale pressure/retard unit. If the carb needs a rebuild,
> send it to the Meister for one of his top-end rebuilds.
>
> You can hide all of these changes and look bone stock. The higher energy
> ignition and pressure/retard will in fact allow more advanced timing, and
> more pep. Mine especially run better when cold.
>
> Best of all you still have a basically stock Corvair with all the fun that
> goes with that. And it won't cost you an arm and a leg.
>
> Going down the path much further than what I outlined leads to the
> "experimental zone." One change always leads to another. Some changes do
> not work well. Others do. Parts and time and money flow ... this is GREAT
> if that is what you want to do ... fool with the car. I supercharged one
> of my Corvairs, and guess what, it took months to get it running well, and
> I suspect I'll always be fooling with it. Luckily, my mission on that car
> was to fool around with it.
>
> My other cars had the same missions as you -- fun drivers with a bit more
> pep, and they have the changes described above only -- dead reliable, no
> extra maintenance, no guessing beyond normal tune-ups queries ...
>
> Have fun!
>
> At 03:01 PM 11/17/2004, Norman C. Witte wrote:
> >Hmmmm.
> >
> >I take it the more accurate boost gauge is necessary because I am more
> >likely to grenade the motor with these performance enhancements.
> >
> >I am wondering if I am experiencing a bit of mission creep here. My
> >original intent was to end up with a basically stock appearing motor, with a
> >little more "pep" than stock. I had thought to use the 150 turbine wheel
> >and the Jet Hot because that seemed like a simple enough deal. Then the
> >issue came up of the Safeguard...
> >
> >This led to discussions about 95 hp heads and all sorts of things, and now I
> >am headed on to intercoolers, water injection and waste gates. All of these
> >are great ideas, but I am mainly looking to make a car that will be nice to
> >drive all summer, and maybe to be a shade quicker to build boost.
> >
> >So you're right about the tangled web.
> >
> >There's a "recipe book" for building a street autocross 140 on the web:
> >
> >http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/nvce/files/EngRcp3.htm
> >
> >I'm hoping to do upgrades to my motor to about this level. Part of my
> >problem, and it is the problem everyone has who wants a faster car but
> >doesn't have experience doing this, is that I don't know what to expect of
> >any given enhancment. For example, I don't know how much of an effect I
> >will get from having the exhaust coated. Will this result in a modest or
> >dramatic increase in boost? I would expect the 150 turbine wheel to
> >decrease boost, but make what it does more rapidly. How significant is this
> >change? No idea. The problem of course is that I don't own a flow bench, a
> >machine shop, a dynomometer, or a multitude of parts to experiment with
> >until I get the combo just right.
> >
> >Would I be better off sticking with my stock heads in order to build some
> >limitation into the system? If that is the case, do I need forged pistons?
> >
> >Has someone recently put together a 180 hp. motor that sounds like what I
> >want and works particularly well?
> >
> >Sorry to keep asking all these questions, but as you said, Frank, "Getting
> >all these changes to work well together will
> >require lots of research and planning." The more radical I go, the less
> >likely I am to get it right, so I aim to keep my changes modest. But I
> >don't want to throw time and money away changing things that may actually
> >worsen performance because they were not properly planned improvements.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Norm
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: virtualvairs-admin@corvair.org
> > > [mailto:virtualvairs-admin@corvair.org]On Behalf Of FrankCB@aol.com
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 2:58 PM
> > > To: ncwitte@wittelaw.com; virtualvairs@corvair.org
> > > Subject: <VV> Re: Turbo set up--was mileage
> > >
> > >
> > > Norm,
> > > First, you definitely need to add a boost gauge that
> > > shows every psi (or,
> > > even better, every 1/2 psi) so you can tell what effect on
> > > boost level these
> > > changes produce. I'd also recommend having TWO cylinder heat
> > > temp gauges, one
> > > for each head. And you should consider using a wastegate to
> > > keep control of
> > > the boost level.
> > > If you're planning on going over 15 psi boost, then you
> > > will need the
> > > forged pistons. The Jet Hot coatings on the exhaust system
> > > should be applied to
> > > the INSIDE of the manifolds and piping to try to limit the
> > > metal temp. If you
> > > don't do this then the stock crossover pipe will overheat and
> > > disintegrate
> > > likely where it makes the big bend going from horizontal to
> > > vertical. (Go
> > > ahead, ask me how I know this.(:-) In addition,
> > > overtemperaturing the crossover
> > > pipe between the heads will result in excessive thermal
> > > expansion and loosen the
> > > bolts to the manifolds, resulting in exhaust leaks. To
> > > prevent that, you
> > > need either a slip joint or a bellows connection in the
> > > crossover pipe unless you
> > > can correctly apply the Jet Hot coating INSIDE the piping.
> > > Follow Bob Helt's recommendations ("The Classic Corvair")
> > > for setting up
> > > squish/quench spacing in the 95 heads.
> > > Regarding the Petronix II and the SafeGuard, I'd suggest
> > > you contact Ray
> > > Sedman to see if the Petronix I might be adequate, since the
> > > variable dwell
> > > feature of the Petronix II is duplicated in the SafeGuard.
> > > Even with the stock 10 psi boost level, you should add either an
> > > intercooler or water injection to bring down the temp of the
> > > air out of the compressor.
> > > The engine can only take in a certain VOLUME of air in each
> > > revolution. The
> > > cooling will increase the DENSITY of this air so that the same VOLUME
> > > contains more WEIGHT (mass) of air, and, of course, the
> > > oxygen that is part of it.
> > > Getting all these changes to work well together will
> > > require lots of
> > > research and planning. And of course, you might be limited
> > > by cost factors.
> > > "Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we try to get
> > > more power".
> > > Good luck,
> > > Frank Burkhard
> > >
> > > In a message dated 11/16/04 1:50:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > ncwitte@wittelaw.com writes:
> > > Wow.
> > >
> > > This is interesting.
> > >
> > > So to get to specific cases, assuming that I want a
> > > streetable but better
> > > than stock performance motor of the following:
> > >
> > > Stock carb with vacuum port
> > > 180 impeller/150 turbine wheel
> > > Jet hot coating on exhaust manifolds, exhaust pipes
> > > .030 over forged pistons
> > > 95 hp heads
> > > 95 hp distributor
> > > Pertronix II
> > > Flamethrower coil
> > > Safeguard
> > > NA vacuum advance
> > >
> > > What would you keep? What would you skip? What would you add?
> > >
> > > Norm
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > of the writer, please attribute properly. For help,
> >mailto:vv-help@corvair.org
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> > _______________________________________________
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>
> Eric S. Eberhard
> (928) 567-3727 Voice
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>
> 928-301-7537 -- you may call any time day or night, I turn it off when I
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>
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