[FC] What's in a name?

Wed Aug 9 14:25:30 EDT 2006

This is my reply to Jeff Stewart on the Virtual Vairs list, who made the 
comment that VW deserved credit for having built the "first minivan."  Kent 
Sullivan suggested I post it here as well...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I  agree, and I don't.

I can't argue about the chronology of the matter  The VW Type II came 
first.  However, there may be a definitional problem.

Let's look at what Chrysler specifically designed the Caravan/Voyager to do:

1) carry six (standard) or nine (long wheelbase) people and some luggage.
2) in (American) car-like comfort
3) at (American) car-like speeds
4) with car-like handling and sight lines.
5) and park it in a low-ceiling garage with a low door opening
6) low step-over height
7) no driveshaft hump

The Deluxe Greenbrier meets all of these criteria (for 1960-65) except 
4.  It was, in fact, designed to do so in the same way the Chrysler 
minivans were.  Nothing with forward controls is going to satisfy item 4 
fully, so if we insist on the front axle being forward of the driver's 
feet, neither the VW nor the Chevrolet was the first minivan.

If we allow Mary Housewife the ability to learn to drive a forward control 
without trauma, we still have the minor problem that a 1960-1965 VW 
Microbus (Type II) has a maximum of 44 HP and, if loaded with nine people, 
will max out at about 50 MPH on level ground.  Hit a hill, and you're down 
in the 35 MPH range and grateful you didn't remove the reduction 
boxes.  This definitely fails item 3.  My Greenbrier, by comparison, has 
transported six people and 500 lbs of luggage (band equipment) at 60-80 MPH 
on the superslab (usually I-40 in NC) in summer.  Uphill, downhill, doesn't 
much matter.  And it gets 20+ MPG while doing it with a basically stock 
drivetrain.  That's car-like performance with better than car-like fuel 
economy for the day. Anybody with a Falcon or Rambler wagon would have been 
happy to do as well at that vehicle's max gross.

The original VW Type II was designed for narrow European city 
streets.  About the only dimension it could stand to be large in was 
height.  Sure enough, a stock Type II won't fit through a 1960 American 
garage door.  My greenbrier does.  It does it by inches, but it fits.  Win 
on item 5: Greenbrier.

Likewise, the streets in Europe were often uneven or cobblestone in 
1960.  The Type II VW has lots of ground clearance to cope with this.  It's 
less than 18" to the floor in my greenbrier.  It's not in a contemporary 
VW.   Win on item 6: the Chevy.

Item 2 is the most subjective of the bunch.  And if there's one item other 
than control effort where both vehicles are clearly substandard compared to 
a 1963 passenger car, I'd have to say it's the ride.  Having said that, VW 
torsion springs aren't known for their gentleness or length of travel.  A 
Greenbrier (especially with the pre-bumper-height law rear springs) rides 
better.  Win on item 2: the 'Brier.

Note:  I am NOT slamming the VW type II.  Car engineering is an 
evolutionary process.  The Greenbrier was, as GM freely admitted (in the 
SAE tech paper, among other places) an American response to the existence 
and success of the VW type II.  Of course it was better at most things--it 
was a 5 year newer design that was optimized for the American market.

More to the point - it's a lot closer to a consumer minivan than the 
contemporary VW is.  VW designed the original type 2 as a freight vehicle 
first, then put seats in it.  The Corvair 95 van body was intended for 
station wagon and freight use from day one.

VW took the lessons to heart, however.  The T2 VW van had the type 4 engine 
(up to 70 HP) and wasn't so tall.  Definitely not a speed demon, but much 
better than the original.  Can a loaded stock loaf-bus keep up with a 
loaded stock greenbrier?  Probably not, or I wouldn't have seen so many 
transvair conversions on this chassis.

So which was the first minivan?  Id say that depends on whose definition 
you use.  If we're talking about a vehicle intended to replace the American 
station wagon with a one-box design, I'd have to say that the Greenbrier is 
a lot closer to what Chrysler was trying to do 20 years later than anything 
VW did before the Vanagon (T3) with Wasserboxer, which is, incidentally, 
contemporaneous with the first-generation Chrysler minivan.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2
http://rad.davis.home.comcast.net/fc1.html

At 10:45 AM 8/7/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>cab forward" and/or "we invented the
>mini-van" commercials from Chrysler?
>
>
>
>I think VW gets the credit for inventing the mini-van, despite what Lee 
>claims. And it doesn't get anymore "cab forward" than a split window VW 
>bus!  Jeff
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__________________________________________________________________________
Rad Davis:                                        rad.davis at comcast.net
Corvairs--65, 66 Corsa coupes, '65 'brier Deluxe   http://www.corvair.org/
Keeper of the Forward Control Corvair Primer: 
http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/fc1.html
"We did Nebraska in seven minutes today. I think that's probably the best 
way to do Nebraska."                            --Brian Shul, _Sled Driver_